Standard Open the Vaults? - Demonic Tutor2024-03-28T16:52:36Zhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/standard-open-the-vaults?x=1&id=3440403%3ATopic%3A16333&feed=yes&xn_auth=noAgreed, While UW may be the b…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-06-03:3440403:Comment:164242010-06-03T16:59:16.658ZGary Lynchhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/GaryLynch
Agreed, While UW may be the best deck in a vacum, it all depends on what numbers the other decks are putting up. If everyone is trying to beat it, your gonna have a hard time.<br />
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I would be playing UW if I had the cards and the time to practice it properly.
Agreed, While UW may be the best deck in a vacum, it all depends on what numbers the other decks are putting up. If everyone is trying to beat it, your gonna have a hard time.<br />
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I would be playing UW if I had the cards and the time to practice it properly. WU may be the best deck in th…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-06-03:3440403:Comment:164232010-06-03T16:55:45.960ZDan Barretthttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/DanBarrett
WU may be the best deck in the format (i'm not sure, but i feel based on my own playing, plus results, there is a stronger case for Vengevine Naya or Mythic Conscription to be the "best deck"), but it isn't what the majority of the field will be playing, IMO.<br />
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However, i agree that knowing you, you'll probably vastly outplay all the scrubs like me playing our aggro decks, so you only need to really worry about the very top players. I think the best deck for you to play and the best deck for me…
WU may be the best deck in the format (i'm not sure, but i feel based on my own playing, plus results, there is a stronger case for Vengevine Naya or Mythic Conscription to be the "best deck"), but it isn't what the majority of the field will be playing, IMO.<br />
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However, i agree that knowing you, you'll probably vastly outplay all the scrubs like me playing our aggro decks, so you only need to really worry about the very top players. I think the best deck for you to play and the best deck for me to play will be different as a result, i guess.<br />
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When are you back? Would be good to get some testing in like last year, despite my suboptimal deck choice i found it very helpful 1) Because by the time you ar…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-06-03:3440403:Comment:164202010-06-03T16:32:14.346ZBen Titmarshhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/BenTitmarsh
1) Because by the time you are comboing off to the extent that you are at 11 mana, there's not many times when you won't be able to get to 15 mana just as easily, and Emrakul just wins the game on the spot when you hardcast him. Their random hate shouldn't be an issue for you at this point. His +1 turn is also synergystic with the rest of the deck (although this is largely irrelevant as he should just win you the game without needing to do anything else). He also counters polymorphing into…
1) Because by the time you are comboing off to the extent that you are at 11 mana, there's not many times when you won't be able to get to 15 mana just as easily, and Emrakul just wins the game on the spot when you hardcast him. Their random hate shouldn't be an issue for you at this point. His +1 turn is also synergystic with the rest of the deck (although this is largely irrelevant as he should just win you the game without needing to do anything else). He also counters polymorphing into emrakul if you can time it right.<br />
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2) Didn't find casting firewalker to be an issue with the extra marsh flats and prophetic prism. The life gain is very relevant if you have a mine out as you will be drawing them into a lot of burn.<br />
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3) Maybe i ran into a disproportionate amount of polymorph but with their 8 counters (and you drawing them into counters) i wouldn't count on oblivion ring as a solid answer. Definitely worth a test though.<br />
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4) Awesome, definitely testing this.<br />
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5) Angelsong is awesome vs jund and naya and thats the only reason it's there. For me this slot was largely a meta choice and it could just have easily gone to negate. One of the stronger plays that I managed to eek out more often than not was turn 3 borderpost, turn 4 tezzeret untapping 2 posts for angelsong. This puts you in a great position vs anything aggro.<br />
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6) Journey seems like a decent answer, but the only problem I have with these sort of cards is that they slow down your engine, you really want to be making prism turn 2, failing that howling mine. Definitely another idea worth testing.<br />
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<cite>Peter Dun said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/standard-open-the-vaults?page=1&commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A16418&x=1#3440403Comment16418"><div>thanks for the feedback all<br/> <br/>
in Shanghai at the moment for study, Demonic Tutor is banned (anything with demonic in it is banned) only recently found a reliable VPN to get around the Chinese Government firewall<br/>
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@ben:<br/>
1) why not ulamog? wouldn't ulamog sort out random hate problems as well as shuffle back in?<br/>
2) why firewalker over vedalken outlander? playing firewalker normally won't happen until turn 4, by which time you are already in serious trouble. it also doesn't help you go off<br/>
3) how relevant is polymorph? if it is relevant I strongly recommend running both capsule and oblivion ring as answers to emrakul<br/>
4) one of the advantages of a transformational sideboard is that it gives you pre-emptive defence vs. pithing needle on sieve, angel is great at racing, especially as all you need is 4 turns to win (and timewalk/sieve give you those turns)<br/>
5) how good have angelsongs been for you? I tested them, and they only seem to do anything against naya and good draws fromjund<br/>
6) finally, what do you think about running journey to nowheres somewhere as an answer to leech that comes back with open the vaults if killed or blightninged<br/>
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@Dan<br/>
wu is the best deck in the format, I want a very good wu matchup as the people I am most afraid of in any given tournament are most likely to be running wu. the fact that the deck is good vs jund too is just a bonus. mono red is an auto loss, but I would rather have 80-20 matchups that I can attack with my sb rather than the 60-40s jund has.<br/>
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@gary: 25 mana sources and 11 cantrips tends to be enough to get the job done, but sure, you do have to mulligan sometimes</div>
</blockquote> thanks for the feedback all…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-06-03:3440403:Comment:164182010-06-03T16:14:54.695ZPeter Dunhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/PeterDun
thanks for the feedback all<br />
<br />
in Shanghai at the moment for study, Demonic Tutor is banned (anything with demonic in it is banned) only recently found a reliable VPN to get around the Chinese Government firewall<br />
<br />
@ben:<br />
1) why not ulamog? wouldn't ulamog sort out random hate problems as well as shuffle back in?<br />
2) why firewalker over vedalken outlander? playing firewalker normally won't happen until turn 4, by which time you are already in serious trouble. it also doesn't help you go off<br />
3) how…
thanks for the feedback all<br />
<br />
in Shanghai at the moment for study, Demonic Tutor is banned (anything with demonic in it is banned) only recently found a reliable VPN to get around the Chinese Government firewall<br />
<br />
@ben:<br />
1) why not ulamog? wouldn't ulamog sort out random hate problems as well as shuffle back in?<br />
2) why firewalker over vedalken outlander? playing firewalker normally won't happen until turn 4, by which time you are already in serious trouble. it also doesn't help you go off<br />
3) how relevant is polymorph? if it is relevant I strongly recommend running both capsule and oblivion ring as answers to emrakul<br />
4) one of the advantages of a transformational sideboard is that it gives you pre-emptive defence vs. pithing needle on sieve, angel is great at racing, especially as all you need is 4 turns to win (and timewalk/sieve give you those turns)<br />
5) how good have angelsongs been for you? I tested them, and they only seem to do anything against naya and good draws fromjund<br />
6) finally, what do you think about running journey to nowheres somewhere as an answer to leech that comes back with open the vaults if killed or blightninged<br />
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@Dan<br />
wu is the best deck in the format, I want a very good wu matchup as the people I am most afraid of in any given tournament are most likely to be running wu. the fact that the deck is good vs jund too is just a bonus. mono red is an auto loss, but I would rather have 80-20 matchups that I can attack with my sb rather than the 60-40s jund has.<br />
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@gary: 25 mana sources and 11 cantrips tends to be enough to get the job done, but sure, you do have to mulligan sometimes 15 or 16 is standard in OtV.…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-06-03:3440403:Comment:163622010-06-03T09:26:59.680ZBen Titmarshhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/BenTitmarsh
15 or 16 is standard in OtV. Malestrom Pulse will always be an issue for this deck, but what you don't want when you start time warping is to end up with a hand full of land.<br />
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<cite>Gary Lynch said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/standard-open-the-vaults?page=1&commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A16361&x=1#3440403Comment16361"><div>Also isnt running only 15 lands dangerous? I know you have borderposts but they dont count if you draw an opener with no basics.…</div>
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15 or 16 is standard in OtV. Malestrom Pulse will always be an issue for this deck, but what you don't want when you start time warping is to end up with a hand full of land.<br />
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<cite>Gary Lynch said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/standard-open-the-vaults?page=1&commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A16361&x=1#3440403Comment16361"><div>Also isnt running only 15 lands dangerous? I know you have borderposts but they dont count if you draw an opener with no basics. Also you really open yourself up to getting blown out by Maelstrol Pulse.</div>
</blockquote> Also isnt running only 15 lan…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-06-03:3440403:Comment:163612010-06-03T09:23:03.609ZGary Lynchhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/GaryLynch
Also isnt running only 15 lands dangerous? I know you have borderposts but they dont count if you draw an opener with no basics. Also you really open yourself up to getting blown out by Maelstrol Pulse.
Also isnt running only 15 lands dangerous? I know you have borderposts but they dont count if you draw an opener with no basics. Also you really open yourself up to getting blown out by Maelstrol Pulse. Yeah I played this in 2 nats…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-06-03:3440403:Comment:163572010-06-03T09:19:30.495ZBen Titmarshhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/BenTitmarsh
Yeah I played this in 2 nats qualifiers and a ptq. I absolutely loved playing the deck but I found it a little lacking in some matchups. First off, this just can't lose to UW/Planeswalkers as you point out. They just don't pack enough counterspells and their gameplan is too long to effectively deal with what you are doing. Siding in 4 negates is enough to take down these matches with little difficulty. However, it doesn't come without it's weak matchups. I played polymorph three times, and…
Yeah I played this in 2 nats qualifiers and a ptq. I absolutely loved playing the deck but I found it a little lacking in some matchups. First off, this just can't lose to UW/Planeswalkers as you point out. They just don't pack enough counterspells and their gameplan is too long to effectively deal with what you are doing. Siding in 4 negates is enough to take down these matches with little difficulty. However, it doesn't come without it's weak matchups. I played polymorph three times, and their 8 md counters, combined with the fact that they generally combo-ed off a turn before me was a real issue. Jund post-board bringing in Duress and Thought Hemmorhage was painful. Turn 2 leech is particularly difficult to deal with as it is, and the new versions running Geopede's as well are just too fast and too disruptive for this deck<br />
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I also encountered a lot of Pithing Needles post board. Obviously they are great for a lot of decks vs Super Friends, and naming Time Sieve can cause us issues.<br />
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I didn't run maindeck Oblivion Ring, which seems like a decent answer to a lot of these problems. I was just going for all-out combo, but its definitely worth testing.<br />
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My maindeck was the same as yours with the following differences:<br />
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-2 Jace, Mind Sculptor<br />
-2 Oblivion Ring<br />
-1 DoJ<br />
-3 Ponder<br />
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+4 Angel Song<br />
+1 Mistvein Borderpost<br />
+1 Time Sieve<br />
+1 Marsh Flats<br />
+1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn<br />
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The Emrakul is a cheesy alternate wincon and occasional graveyard reset. I won about 60% of my games by hardcasting this guy, which isn't too tricky when you are chaining lots of turns, returning discarded borderposts from your graveyard with OtV and untapping chalice for 2 with Tezzeret. With so many lightning bolts around, it's nice to have an alternative to tezzeret who would often not quite get there.<br />
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In the last nats qualifier I also dropped an Angel Song for a Glassdust Husk.<br />
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My Sideboard looked like this:<br />
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4 Kor Firewalker<br />
4 Negate<br />
4 Spell Pierce<br />
3 Day of Judgment<br />
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Firewalker is essential vs mono-red and I opted for 8 counters to improve the Polymorph matchup and spell pierce gives me more of a chance vs Duress.<br />
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On balance, the version I played suffers very much from typical combo deck syndrome of some 90% matchups, but also a lot of 30-40% matchups (Jund, Red-Black Aggro, Polymorph, Vengevine Naya were all tricky).<br />
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I am very interested to hear how the transformative sideboard plan goes in testing, and how the maindeck Oblivion Rings work out for you. Also, great to hear from you again peter, you seemed to drop off the world these last few months! I agree with Dan, im always s…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-06-03:3440403:Comment:163542010-06-03T09:19:24.144ZGary Lynchhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/GaryLynch
I agree with Dan, im always surprised when I see decent/half decent players bring this deck to a PTQ. I always think 'wow, if you played a real deck you may have a chance of winning'.<br />
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<cite>Dan Barrett said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/standard-open-the-vaults?commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A16351&xg_source=activity#3440403Comment16349"><div>It just doesn't seem much like a real deck. Whenever i see it at a tournament, i'm thinking "Oh LOL look at that…</div>
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I agree with Dan, im always surprised when I see decent/half decent players bring this deck to a PTQ. I always think 'wow, if you played a real deck you may have a chance of winning'.<br />
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<cite>Dan Barrett said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/standard-open-the-vaults?commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A16351&xg_source=activity#3440403Comment16349"><div>It just doesn't seem much like a real deck. Whenever i see it at a tournament, i'm thinking "Oh LOL look at that douchebag with OtV, he's not gonna win". And then as expected, they don't win.<br/> <br/>
It doesn't seem unfair enough, it's a good deck surrounded by VERY good decks. Why wouldn't you want to play Jund, Mythic, Naya or U/W/x instead of this?</div>
</blockquote> needs more Emrakul :Dtag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-06-03:3440403:Comment:163512010-06-03T09:12:40.356ZPaul Hodgsonhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/PaulHodgson
needs more Emrakul :D
needs more Emrakul :D It just doesn't seem much lik…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-06-03:3440403:Comment:163492010-06-03T09:06:43.266ZDan Barretthttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/DanBarrett
It just doesn't seem much like a real deck. Whenever i see it at a tournament, i'm thinking "Oh LOL look at that douchebag with OtV, he's not gonna win". And then as expected, they don't win.<br />
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It doesn't seem unfair enough, it's a good deck surrounded by VERY good decks. Why wouldn't you want to play Jund, Mythic, Naya or U/W/x instead of this?
It just doesn't seem much like a real deck. Whenever i see it at a tournament, i'm thinking "Oh LOL look at that douchebag with OtV, he's not gonna win". And then as expected, they don't win.<br />
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It doesn't seem unfair enough, it's a good deck surrounded by VERY good decks. Why wouldn't you want to play Jund, Mythic, Naya or U/W/x instead of this?