You Make the Draft IV - Demonic Tutor2024-03-19T11:03:06Zhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/you-make-the-draft-iv?commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A51697&feed=yes&xn_auth=noTom's idea for a theme seems…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2012-04-10:3440403:Comment:526992012-04-10T11:26:35.832ZKieran Symingtonhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/KieranSymington
<p>Tom's idea for a theme seems decent without being oppressively narrow so is fine by me.</p>
<p>The database looks pretty sweet. I like the way it allows more than one design for a card, though I don't like the way it created a new card when I just wanted to put a comment in the notes! If someone uploads Simon's design skeleton into the database, anyone who wanted to get involved could upload cards into the relevant sections and we'd be off! Not being able to download the cards wouldn't make…</p>
<p>Tom's idea for a theme seems decent without being oppressively narrow so is fine by me.</p>
<p>The database looks pretty sweet. I like the way it allows more than one design for a card, though I don't like the way it created a new card when I just wanted to put a comment in the notes! If someone uploads Simon's design skeleton into the database, anyone who wanted to get involved could upload cards into the relevant sections and we'd be off! Not being able to download the cards wouldn't make much difference when you can edit them online. Art can be always sourced later once the names are finalized!</p>
<p>This also probably needs a new thread collecting all the ideas ready for a You Make the Draft V...</p> Awesome!
You have even setup…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2012-04-10:3440403:Comment:524362012-04-10T08:43:34.352ZSimon O'Keeffehttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/sokeeffe
<p>Awesome!</p>
<p></p>
<p>You have even setup the inevitable 3rd set: Towering Erections</p>
<p></p>
<p>Seriously though, this is a pretty good starting point. Using just your short description I would expect the following:</p>
<p></p>
<p>Madness - primarily in Red, but also Black and Green</p>
<p>Scry, library manipulation - Blue, a little in Red (looting)</p>
<p>Lifegain - White, a little in Green</p>
<p>Graveyard interaction - Black (and we will have to work this into Green…</p>
<p>Awesome!</p>
<p></p>
<p>You have even setup the inevitable 3rd set: Towering Erections</p>
<p></p>
<p>Seriously though, this is a pretty good starting point. Using just your short description I would expect the following:</p>
<p></p>
<p>Madness - primarily in Red, but also Black and Green</p>
<p>Scry, library manipulation - Blue, a little in Red (looting)</p>
<p>Lifegain - White, a little in Green</p>
<p>Graveyard interaction - Black (and we will have to work this into Green too)</p>
<p></p>
<p>Looking at that Green is going to be a jack of all trades and master of none, also Blue only really has top of the library. As looting (discard required) and the graveyard look to be key areas perhaps we may also want to bring back the ever popular Flashback mechanic to help support these, and give Blue a little extra identity. It could represent their ability to have to keep repeating the same old spells, as the vast knowledge of the past is lost to them.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Thinking about lifegain already has me designing hoser cards to keep it in check:</p>
<p></p>
<p>Spiteful Goblin - 1R</p>
<p>Creature - Goblin - 2/1</p>
<p>If a player would gain life, that player loses 1 life instead.</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p> The Wizards of the Red Tower…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2012-04-10:3440403:Comment:524352012-04-10T07:02:58.329ZThomas David Bakerhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/ThomasDavidBaker
<p>The Wizards of the Red Tower have a giant store of crumbling books left by an earlier generation. They are immensely powerful but not always comprehensible to the lesser mages of today. They have a tendency to race through the books, tearing out the ruined or incomprehensible pages, to get to powerful spells they can use today.</p>
<p>The Wizards of the Blue Tower speak of a time when their forebears could see far into the future. Now they can only see a few moments ahead, although even…</p>
<p>The Wizards of the Red Tower have a giant store of crumbling books left by an earlier generation. They are immensely powerful but not always comprehensible to the lesser mages of today. They have a tendency to race through the books, tearing out the ruined or incomprehensible pages, to get to powerful spells they can use today.</p>
<p>The Wizards of the Blue Tower speak of a time when their forebears could see far into the future. Now they can only see a few moments ahead, although even this can be a powerful ability. Their leader is a one-eyed mage who it is said gave his other eye in order to see the moment of his own death.</p>
<p>The White Tower has forbidden all Wizardry and erased all records of their magical tradition. Instead the priests who dwell there practice the dual arts of healing and war.</p>
<p>The Black Tower has descended into madness. Their is no longer a discernible power structure there as Necromancers practice their dark arts and Zombies shamble through its hallways. The tower itself collapsed inwards during a magical experiment and is now partially underground.</p>
<p>The druids of the Great Forest lay claim to the tradition of the Green Tower. The Tower itself has not been seen for centuries and its location is lost to memory. The druids maintain that it can only be found in a secret grove at the heart of the Great Forest by those with an extreme kinship with the forest.</p>
<p>A continent once ruled by five Towers of Wizardry. The White, Blue, Black, Red and Green Towers ruled, performing impossible magical feats. Too much magical force threatened the stability of the plane and many wizards went mad and much knowledge was lost. Now the remnants of the magical traditions dwell in the huge towers avoiding the madness of the outside world and plotting against one another.</p>
<p></p> Reply to themes post:
Trying…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2012-04-09:3440403:Comment:524342012-04-09T20:47:10.200ZSimon O'Keeffehttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/sokeeffe
<p>Reply to themes post:</p>
<p></p>
<p>Trying to make lifegain better/interesting is certainly an area worth exploring. I imagine it is going to be very tricky to balance, so as not to just invalidate aggro strategies. We might have to look at adding in support for less common win conditions like milling or poison.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Top of the library certainly looks to have a lot of design space, and is probably easier to do than lifegain. Most of the cards you mentioned that are very strong…</p>
<p>Reply to themes post:</p>
<p></p>
<p>Trying to make lifegain better/interesting is certainly an area worth exploring. I imagine it is going to be very tricky to balance, so as not to just invalidate aggro strategies. We might have to look at adding in support for less common win conditions like milling or poison.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Top of the library certainly looks to have a lot of design space, and is probably easier to do than lifegain. Most of the cards you mentioned that are very strong with top of the library stuff are primarily in constructed (MulDaya Channelers probably the exception). There are loads of interesting things in this space like Deceivers, Scry, Scroll Rack, Clash, plus card manipulation is generally an area of the game that makes players feel good. Actively reducing variance and generating interesting decisions are all good things.</p>
<p></p>
<p>So with looting as a Red theme, and graveyard as a green/black them, we at least have something to work with for all the colours to begin with.</p>
<p></p> Reply to multiverse post:
Wh…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2012-04-09:3440403:Comment:526222012-04-09T20:19:27.220ZSimon O'Keeffehttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/sokeeffe
<p>Reply to multiverse post:</p>
<p></p>
<p>While it would be nice, I certainly don't think it is needed to re-invent the wheel by trying to create your own MSE. I think try and stick to something as simple as possible that will allow us to collaborate, so I'm thinking option 1.</p>
<p></p>
<p>There is still some potential fiddlyness if multiple people design a card for the same slot or people who don't design want to make changes, but I think that is acceptable. Since it is very likely that…</p>
<p>Reply to multiverse post:</p>
<p></p>
<p>While it would be nice, I certainly don't think it is needed to re-invent the wheel by trying to create your own MSE. I think try and stick to something as simple as possible that will allow us to collaborate, so I'm thinking option 1.</p>
<p></p>
<p>There is still some potential fiddlyness if multiple people design a card for the same slot or people who don't design want to make changes, but I think that is acceptable. Since it is very likely that there won't be that many of us doing this, we could probably try combining this with a communal MSE set file too.</p>
<p></p>
<p>PS: Is it worth starting a new thread?</p> Regarding themes, if I can ch…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2012-04-09:3440403:Comment:526892012-04-09T06:45:32.959ZThomas David Bakerhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/ThomasDavidBaker
<p>Regarding themes, if I can change the subject so quickly, I was wondering if something in W could be "lifegain that is actually good". Not very flavorful but I'd love to see a set where some things like Searing Meditation seeded at Uncommon made a lifegain-based Burning Vengeance-style deck possible.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I see cards like:</p>
<p>Uncommon - Enchantment - 2W - Whenever you gain life you may draw a card.</p>
<p>Uncommon - Enchantment - 1WR - Whenever you gain life you may have ~…</p>
<p>Regarding themes, if I can change the subject so quickly, I was wondering if something in W could be "lifegain that is actually good". Not very flavorful but I'd love to see a set where some things like Searing Meditation seeded at Uncommon made a lifegain-based Burning Vengeance-style deck possible.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I see cards like:</p>
<p>Uncommon - Enchantment - 2W - Whenever you gain life you may draw a card.</p>
<p>Uncommon - Enchantment - 1WR - Whenever you gain life you may have ~ deal 2 damage to target creature or player.</p>
<p>Common - Creature - Human Cleric Warrior - 1W - 2/1 - Lifelink</p>
<p>Uncommon - Creature - Turtle Cleric - 4W - 1/4 - Whenever you gain life you may draw a card. Lifelink.</p>
<p>Rare - 3WR - Creature - Human Cleric Warrior - 2/3 - Whenever you gain life you may have ~ deal 2 damage to target creature or player. Lifelink.</p>
<p>Common - Sorcery - 4W - You gain 6 life. Draw a card.</p>
<p>Common - Instant - 3W - Creatures you control get +1/+1 and gain lifelink until end of turn.</p>
<p>Common - 1RW - Instant - ~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player and you gain 2 life.</p>
<p>Common - Instant - W - You gain 1 life. Draw a card.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I'm not sure if I'm allowed that much card drawing and cantripping in W but the principle is the thing - cards that relate to life gain that in sufficient numbers are quite nutty but which on their own vary from strong (rare guy, weak Lightning Helix, lifelink turtle?) to good (color shifted Child of Night) to terrible (gain 1 life cantrip, colorshifted Dosan's Oldest Chant) with more on the bottom end of the scale than the top (by rarity). (I'd love to print 1W Enchantment - Whenever you draw a card you may gain 1 life, too, for infinite combo with the opposite card, despite one half of the combo basically being Ajani's Mantra. Not sure if we want a two card win-the-game combo though. Perhaps we could get rid of the may in the triggers?!)</p>
<p></p>
<p>I see us seeding a few decks like this. Lifegain-is-not-terrible deck, top-card-of-library deck, reprint of Astral Slide and Lightning Rift cycling-based deck, others. Decks that make you windmill slam some fairly bad commons but which also use a bunch of solid limited cards like french vanilla bears and so on.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Re: the top card of library deck. Obviously there has to be cards that reveal it, cards that can use it, cards that can manipulate it, and of course Goblin Confidant to hose it. Possibly interact with the opponent's top card of library too? A lot of the cards in this area are very strong (Future Sight, Delver of Secrets, Mul Daya Channelers, Oracle of Mul Daya, Vampire Nocturnus, Ponder, Preordain) but some are decidedly not (Skill Borrower, Garruk's Horde, Goblin Spy, Lost in the Woods) and there are a bunch of fair-to-strong cards that might make sense as templates (Augury Owl, Foresee, Crystal Ball, Lose Hope).</p>
<p></p>
<p>I can see the following possibilities:</p>
<p>Play with the top card of your library revealed.<br/>If the top card of your library is revealed you may play it as if it were in your hand.<br/>You may put the top card of your library into your graveyard.<br/>You may put the top card of your library on the bottom of your library.<br/>You may put a card from your hand on to the top of your library. Or swap.<br/>If the top card of your library is revealed and is X then Y. Where X is a type or a CMC and Y is a continuous effect or the option to play it or do some other thing.</p>
<p>And of course some cards would combine some of these, like Corrupt Seer does.</p>
<p>In particular I think basically all of them have to say "play with the top card of your library revealed" just to avoid awkward templating. I see this area as UB.</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p> I have some working code that…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2012-04-09:3440403:Comment:526102012-04-09T06:03:26.853ZThomas David Bakerhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/ThomasDavidBaker
<p>I have some working code that can read MSE files and put them into a database.</p>
<p>Before I go any further I think we should discuss our preferred mode of working.</p>
<p>We definitely want some website where everyone can go and comment on cards. Our own "multiverse".</p>
<blockquote>Thomas Baker 23 mins ago said, "Very aggressively costed ... what about 1GGG instead?"<br></br> Simon O'Keefe 12 mins ago said, "But then you can't play it with the mana from Park Ritual on Turn 1!"<br></br> Kieran…</blockquote>
<p>I have some working code that can read MSE files and put them into a database.</p>
<p>Before I go any further I think we should discuss our preferred mode of working.</p>
<p>We definitely want some website where everyone can go and comment on cards. Our own "multiverse".</p>
<blockquote>Thomas Baker 23 mins ago said, "Very aggressively costed ... what about 1GGG instead?"<br/> Simon O'Keefe 12 mins ago said, "But then you can't play it with the mana from Park Ritual on Turn 1!"<br/>
Kieran Symington 1 min ago said, "Don't worry I've changed Park Ritual to produce GGGGGG and sac all your lands."</blockquote>
<br/><p>I see a few options:</p>
<p>1. Basic. Export card images from MSE, upload to the site. If you want to update the card you have to edit in MSE, re-export as an image, and re-upload that image. There is no capability to edit online, and people that did not create the original card would probably not have access to the art to update it. Pros: all the good MSE features like ~ replacement, automatic reminder text, custom mechanics, spellcheck, card frames and custom mana symbols. Cons: hard for anyone who isn't the original author to edit a card, have to go back to MSE to make small changes even typos.</p>
<p>2. Most radical. Abandon MSE as a vehicle for card creation. All cards are created online in a simple web form and can be edited by anyone. Pros: most collaborative, no fiddling back-and-forth with MSE. Cons: need to find a way to render and print the cards, none of MSE's nice features.</p>
<p>3. Most difficult. Allow import and export from MSE files as well as online editing. Search for groups of cards and export them to MSE. Use MSE for final rendering and printing. Pros: allows use of MSE features without preventing online editing. Cons: code for importing/exporting MSE files will almost certainly be brittle and time consuming to write, you will still probably fiddle back-and-forth with MSE to get things how you want them. The possibility that an MSE update or other change obsoletes a lot of work.</p>
<p>4. Simplest. Use something like Google docs, Basecamp and/or an MSE file shared on box.net to carry the cards and comments (probably separately). Pros: dead simple. Cons: fiddly as hell, things get out of sync very easily.</p>
<p>Do you have any bright ideas that are better than the above options? Or an opinion about which of the options is better?</p>
<p>You can see Kieran's cards (possibly multiple times) here:<br/> <a href="http://bluebones.net:5984/_utils/database.html?multiverse/_design/q/_view/cardsByName" target="_blank">http://bluebones.net:5984/_utils/database.html?multiverse/_design/q...</a><br/>
And an example card here:<br/>
<a href="http://bluebones.net:5984/_utils/document.html?multiverse/c4af3400c882d9342e584f3a507fce8d" target="_blank">http://bluebones.net:5984/_utils/document.html?multiverse/c4af3400c...</a></p>
<p>(Kieran's set had super awkward custom mana costs and new rules so he was a nice and tricky test candidate for the importer.)</p>
<p>(This is a work in progress so don't be surprised if the database disappears or changes radically by the time you click the links.)</p> google docs sounds pretty sui…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2012-04-06:3440403:Comment:526012012-04-06T23:02:35.810ZPhilip Dickinsonhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/PhilipDickinson
<p>google docs sounds pretty suitable. just make a spreadsheet and give the right people edit privileges. if basecamp still exists then that might be suited too</p>
<p>google docs sounds pretty suitable. just make a spreadsheet and give the right people edit privileges. if basecamp still exists then that might be suited too</p> Okay I spent a little time th…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2012-04-06:3440403:Comment:526812012-04-06T20:12:47.295ZSimon O'Keeffehttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/sokeeffe
<p>Okay I spent a little time this afternoon mocking up one of these design skeletons to see how it might work. I went for a 249 card set and fairly standard distribution of colour, creature levels, instant/sorcery mix etc..</p>
<p></p>
<p>The idea with this is that it would be a central file, somehow version controlled, maybe host it on dropbox or something. When you design and add a card, don't change its name, but fill in its rules text, and image if you have one. If you have an idea for a…</p>
<p>Okay I spent a little time this afternoon mocking up one of these design skeletons to see how it might work. I went for a 249 card set and fairly standard distribution of colour, creature levels, instant/sorcery mix etc..</p>
<p></p>
<p>The idea with this is that it would be a central file, somehow version controlled, maybe host it on dropbox or something. When you design and add a card, don't change its name, but fill in its rules text, and image if you have one. If you have an idea for a name put it in the comments field below the card mockup. This way if people have multiple ideas for the same card slot you just create another entry with the same card code, then we know that they are vying for that spot.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Any thoughts on this approach?</p>
<p></p>
<p>I've had to link to the file in the first post, as can't seem to do that in this reply.</p>
<p> </p> background story for world? c…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2012-04-06:3440403:Comment:526802012-04-06T18:49:30.015ZPeter Dunhttp://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/PeterDun
<p>background story for world? can justify all sorts of bleeding for flavour reasons!</p>
<p> </p>
<p><br></br><br></br><cite>Simon O'Keeffe said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/you-make-the-draft-iv?xg_source=activity&id=3440403%3ATopic%3A51538&page=11#3440403Comment52418"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Okay if we are thinking of building a 'set', irrespective of whether it will be singleton cube style or not, Martin mentioned something good on…</p>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<p>background story for world? can justify all sorts of bleeding for flavour reasons!</p>
<p> </p>
<p><br/><br/><cite>Simon O'Keeffe said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/you-make-the-draft-iv?xg_source=activity&id=3440403%3ATopic%3A51538&page=11#3440403Comment52418"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Okay if we are thinking of building a 'set', irrespective of whether it will be singleton cube style or not, Martin mentioned something good on Tuesday.</p>
<p></p>
<p>We should draw up a design skeleton, as outlined by MaRo <a href="http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/78" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">here</a>. This would be a communal design file where we have the general make up of the set pencilled in, and then people just need to design for a slot rather than a random 45. This does mean that there will be no surprise element on the day where you see new cards, but at least we have a pretty good shot at producing something balanced.</p>
<p></p>
<p>This would also allow us to control the level of rare/mythic level cards better, as they would have limited slots and cards would have to compete for them or be lowered in power level/complexity.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Regarding themes for colours, here is what we kind of have so far:</p>
<p></p>
<p>Green - graveyard, ramp, Bears, Frogs</p>
<p>Black - graveyard recursion, Zombies</p>
<p>Red - landfall,</p>
<p>Blue - Turtles, Wizards, top card of library</p>
<p>White - tokens, Spirits</p>
<p></p>
<p>As usual looks like red and white will be the hardest to fill in.</p>
</div>
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