2010 Hall of Fame Ballot - Demonic Tutor2024-03-29T13:50:31Zhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot?commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A19427&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI kind of agree with the Knut…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-08-09:3440403:Comment:195022010-08-09T22:52:19.505ZMax Bottenhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/MaxBotten
I kind of agree with the Knutson article that eventually Mike Long should get in. Apparently his infractions were far more minor than the stories, and certainly I would say his worst offences were still better than Bob Maher's. But even then, to take a Hall of fame literally he is one of the names that carry on from the early days of the pro tour, a legend if not a particularly pleasant one, and a Hall of fame seems incomplete without him.
I kind of agree with the Knutson article that eventually Mike Long should get in. Apparently his infractions were far more minor than the stories, and certainly I would say his worst offences were still better than Bob Maher's. But even then, to take a Hall of fame literally he is one of the names that carry on from the early days of the pro tour, a legend if not a particularly pleasant one, and a Hall of fame seems incomplete without him. Other than the porn, of cours…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-08-09:3440403:Comment:195012010-08-09T19:40:12.444ZTom Reevehttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/TomReeve
Other than the porn, of course >_><br />
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<cite>Philip Dickinson said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot?xg_source=activity&id=3440403%3ATopic%3A19370&page=1#3440403Comment19494"><div>david williams should get in for putting a non-disgusting face on magic. seriously he's like one of the only pro players who isn't a total goon.</div>
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Other than the porn, of course >_><br />
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<cite>Philip Dickinson said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot?xg_source=activity&id=3440403%3ATopic%3A19370&page=1#3440403Comment19494"><div>david williams should get in for putting a non-disgusting face on magic. seriously he's like one of the only pro players who isn't a total goon.</div>
</blockquote> Wow I didn't realise how long…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-08-09:3440403:Comment:194982010-08-09T19:07:28.111ZSimon O'Keeffehttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/sokeeffe
Wow I didn't realise how long the candidate list was now. I imagine there are some guys whose chance has passed now (Mark Justice for example).<br />
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Apart from Nassif there are many, many options. Personally I would go for something beyond just the stats, this is the hall of fame, not just of numbers. So for players who were standouts of their time, brought some personality to the tour, were great ambassadors, and great writers.<br />
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I'm not too worried about players who won't use their permanent…
Wow I didn't realise how long the candidate list was now. I imagine there are some guys whose chance has passed now (Mark Justice for example).<br />
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Apart from Nassif there are many, many options. Personally I would go for something beyond just the stats, this is the hall of fame, not just of numbers. So for players who were standouts of their time, brought some personality to the tour, were great ambassadors, and great writers.<br />
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I'm not too worried about players who won't use their permanent access to the tour, they are all going to fade from the game eventually and I assume the idea is that the hall of fame will still be standing. but what's a goon to a goblin…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-08-09:3440403:Comment:194962010-08-09T18:13:43.707ZDan Barretthttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/DanBarrett
but what's a goon to a goblin?<br />
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<cite>Philip Dickinson said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot?commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A19494&xg_source=activity#3440403Comment19494"><div>david williams should get in for putting a non-disgusting face on magic. seriously he's like one of the only pro players who isn't a total goon.</div>
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but what's a goon to a goblin?<br />
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<cite>Philip Dickinson said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot?commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A19494&xg_source=activity#3440403Comment19494"><div>david williams should get in for putting a non-disgusting face on magic. seriously he's like one of the only pro players who isn't a total goon.</div>
</blockquote> david williams should get in…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-08-09:3440403:Comment:194942010-08-09T18:06:59.472ZPhilip Dickinsonhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/PhilipDickinson
david williams should get in for putting a non-disgusting face on magic. seriously he's like one of the only pro players who isn't a total goon.
david williams should get in for putting a non-disgusting face on magic. seriously he's like one of the only pro players who isn't a total goon. Olivier's second suspension m…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-08-07:3440403:Comment:194372010-08-07T13:01:14.458ZTom Reevehttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/TomReeve
Olivier's second suspension maybe not, but his first was for fairly blatant bribery. Saito was suspended for 18 months for collusion in a Top 8. Did you read Ted Knutson's article from yesterday? Definitely worth a look; <a href="http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/19818_Feature_Article_Hall_of_Fame_Thoughts_2010.html" target="_blank">http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/19818_Feature_Article_Hall_...</a><br />
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And yeah, I can understand the argument about disruptive influence…
Olivier's second suspension maybe not, but his first was for fairly blatant bribery. Saito was suspended for 18 months for collusion in a Top 8. Did you read Ted Knutson's article from yesterday? Definitely worth a look; <a href="http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/19818_Feature_Article_Hall_of_Fame_Thoughts_2010.html" target="_blank">http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/19818_Feature_Article_Hall_...</a><br />
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And yeah, I can understand the argument about disruptive influence etc.<br />
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<cite>Jason Howlett said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot?commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A19427&xg_source=activity#3440403Comment19427"><div><cite>Tom Reeve said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot#3440403Comment19402"><div>Jason - First question is 'Cheaters (past or present) or no?' If no, that could easily take out Mori, Saito, and some of the hangovers from previous ballots?</div>
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I think it depends on what the suspension was for.<br />
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I didn't feel that Olivier's second suspension warranted not voting for him, and the same would be the case should Stuart Wright ever make the ballot.<br />
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However blatantly cheating (Mike Long) or being a continually disruptive influence at tournament, that argues with tournament officials, doesn't follow direct instructions (unless it suits them) and involvement in generally shadey activity (lying / cheating) probably would (hmmm?).</div>
</blockquote> Tom Reeve said:Jason - First…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-08-07:3440403:Comment:194272010-08-07T08:20:34.637ZThe Games Clubhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/JasonHowlett
<cite>Tom Reeve said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot#3440403Comment19402"><div>Jason - First question is 'Cheaters (past or present) or no?' If no, that could easily take out Mori, Saito, and some of the hangovers from previous ballots?</div>
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I think it depends on what the suspension was for.<br />
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I didn't feel that Olivier's second suspension warranted not voting for him, and the same would be the case should Stuart Wright…
<cite>Tom Reeve said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot#3440403Comment19402"><div>Jason - First question is 'Cheaters (past or present) or no?' If no, that could easily take out Mori, Saito, and some of the hangovers from previous ballots?</div>
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I think it depends on what the suspension was for.<br />
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I didn't feel that Olivier's second suspension warranted not voting for him, and the same would be the case should Stuart Wright ever make the ballot.<br />
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However blatantly cheating (Mike Long) or being a continually disruptive influence at tournament, that argues with tournament officials, doesn't follow direct instructions (unless it suits them) and involvement in generally shadey activity (lying / cheating) probably would (hmmm?). I'm unconvinced by how highly…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-08-07:3440403:Comment:194102010-08-07T00:02:22.796ZTom Reevehttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/TomReeve
I'm unconvinced by how highly that particular statistic should be valued. To take that particular comparison, Wafo's peak median finish sounds great, but his conversion rate of Tours to Top 8s is less than half of Nassif's (2 from 23 vs 9 from 46.)<br />
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<cite>Max Botten said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot?commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A19406&xg_source=activity#3440403Comment19406"><div>I think nassif isn't on the statistical list as at…</div>
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I'm unconvinced by how highly that particular statistic should be valued. To take that particular comparison, Wafo's peak median finish sounds great, but his conversion rate of Tours to Top 8s is less than half of Nassif's (2 from 23 vs 9 from 46.)<br />
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<cite>Max Botten said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot?commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A19406&xg_source=activity#3440403Comment19406"><div>I think nassif isn't on the statistical list as at least one of the stats is median finish over peak 3 years, so someone like wafo-tapa is absurd in that regard but not very strong otherwise, whereas Nassif has a median finish of 43rd at his peak, and its pretty much the same across the ten years hes been on tour<br/> <br/>
<cite>Tom Reeve said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot?xg_source=activity#3440403Comment19402"><div>Jason - First question is 'Cheaters (past or present) or no?' If no, that could easily take out Mori, Saito, and some of the hangovers from previous ballots.<br/> <br/> Nassif seems like the one auto-include, I'm not sure why he's not on your statistical list? 9 Top 8s and over 400 points is kind of ridiculous, and the best on the ballot by a mile. I would say that someone like Bram with good numbers over a huge period and with all of his other achievements should be recognised.<br/>
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Kibler has had a crazy comeback year or so, but his overall numbers aren't particularly special, so a vote for Kibler would be in recognition of his other 'intangibles' - the writing, the nature of being one of the big personalities on the tour. Chapin has very mediocre numbers, so that again would be pretty much a pure personality vote (and depends on whether you have the same opinion of convicted drug dealers as cheaters, of course.) Anton and Scott Johns both have that 5th Top 8, which puts them in a very elite class results-wise. If you're big on anti-cheating, a ballot with no Mori or Saito and with Pikula is a pretty strong 'message' ballot :)<br/>
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Also, agree with Dan on biasing towards players that will actually use their permanent Level 3 to stay on / get back on the tour.</div>
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</blockquote> I think nassif isn't on the s…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-08-06:3440403:Comment:194062010-08-06T21:44:18.124ZMax Bottenhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/MaxBotten
I think nassif isn't on the statistical list as at least one of the stats is median finish over peak 3 years, so someone like wafo-tapa is absurd in that regard but not very strong otherwise, whereas Nassif has a median finish of 43rd at his peak, and its pretty much the same across the ten years hes been on tour<br />
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<cite>Tom Reeve said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot?xg_source=activity#3440403Comment19402"><div>Jason - First question is…</div>
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I think nassif isn't on the statistical list as at least one of the stats is median finish over peak 3 years, so someone like wafo-tapa is absurd in that regard but not very strong otherwise, whereas Nassif has a median finish of 43rd at his peak, and its pretty much the same across the ten years hes been on tour<br />
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<cite>Tom Reeve said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/2010-hall-of-fame-ballot?xg_source=activity#3440403Comment19402"><div>Jason - First question is 'Cheaters (past or present) or no?' If no, that could easily take out Mori, Saito, and some of the hangovers from previous ballots.<br/> <br/>
Nassif seems like the one auto-include, I'm not sure why he's not on your statistical list? 9 Top 8s and over 400 points is kind of ridiculous, and the best on the ballot by a mile. I would say that someone like Bram with good numbers over a huge period and with all of his other achievements should be recognised.<br/>
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Kibler has had a crazy comeback year or so, but his overall numbers aren't particularly special, so a vote for Kibler would be in recognition of his other 'intangibles' - the writing, the nature of being one of the big personalities on the tour. Chapin has very mediocre numbers, so that again would be pretty much a pure personality vote (and depends on whether you have the same opinion of convicted drug dealers as cheaters, of course.) Anton and Scott Johns both have that 5th Top 8, which puts them in a very elite class results-wise. If you're big on anti-cheating, a ballot with no Mori or Saito and with Pikula is a pretty strong 'message' ballot :)<br/>
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Also, agree with Dan on biasing towards players that will actually use their permanent Level 3 to stay on / get back on the tour.</div>
</blockquote> Jason - First question is 'Ch…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2010-08-06:3440403:Comment:194022010-08-06T21:24:01.697ZTom Reevehttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/TomReeve
Jason - First question is 'Cheaters (past or present) or no?' If no, that could easily take out Mori, Saito, and some of the hangovers from previous ballots.<br />
<br />
Nassif seems like the one auto-include, I'm not sure why he's not on your statistical list? 9 Top 8s and over 400 points is kind of ridiculous, and the best on the ballot by a mile. I would say that someone like Bram with good numbers over a huge period and with all of his other achievements should be recognised.<br />
<br />
Kibler has had a crazy…
Jason - First question is 'Cheaters (past or present) or no?' If no, that could easily take out Mori, Saito, and some of the hangovers from previous ballots.<br />
<br />
Nassif seems like the one auto-include, I'm not sure why he's not on your statistical list? 9 Top 8s and over 400 points is kind of ridiculous, and the best on the ballot by a mile. I would say that someone like Bram with good numbers over a huge period and with all of his other achievements should be recognised.<br />
<br />
Kibler has had a crazy comeback year or so, but his overall numbers aren't particularly special, so a vote for Kibler would be in recognition of his other 'intangibles' - the writing, the nature of being one of the big personalities on the tour. Chapin has very mediocre numbers, so that again would be pretty much a pure personality vote (and depends on whether you have the same opinion of convicted drug dealers as cheaters, of course.) Anton and Scott Johns both have that 5th Top 8, which puts them in a very elite class results-wise. If you're big on anti-cheating, a ballot with no Mori or Saito and with Pikula is a pretty strong 'message' ballot :)<br />
<br />
Also, agree with Dan on biasing towards players that will actually use their permanent Level 3 to stay on / get back on the tour.