New rules with M10 - Demonic Tutor2024-03-29T14:27:06Zhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/new-rules-with-m10?commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A1085&feed=yes&xn_auth=noi dont really like the change…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2009-06-13:3440403:Comment:16132009-06-13T12:20:26.613ZNathan Gotlibhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/NathanGotlib
i dont really like the changes to the damage stack and all...<br />
those were kind of the things that defined magic and made it more 'exciting' then the other card-games.<br />
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the only rule-changes that truly bother me are the combat stack and mana burn really..
i dont really like the changes to the damage stack and all...<br />
those were kind of the things that defined magic and made it more 'exciting' then the other card-games.<br />
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the only rule-changes that truly bother me are the combat stack and mana burn really.. Yeah sorry, just getting slig…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2009-06-12:3440403:Comment:15652009-06-12T15:02:32.565ZBen Titmarshhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/BenTitmarsh
Yeah sorry, just getting slightly confused here. What I meant is that Mirrodin Loxodon will be erratad, but everything else wont be, so if Mirrodin Warhammer comes up against something that says "when this deals damage you gain life", it be strange to the non-warhammer play that he has just died to lethal, but the warhammer player gained life simultaneously!<br />
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<cite>Thomas David Baker said:…</cite>
Yeah sorry, just getting slightly confused here. What I meant is that Mirrodin Loxodon will be erratad, but everything else wont be, so if Mirrodin Warhammer comes up against something that says "when this deals damage you gain life", it be strange to the non-warhammer play that he has just died to lethal, but the warhammer player gained life simultaneously!<br />
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<cite>Thomas David Baker said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/new-rules-with-m10?page=3&commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A1563&x=1#3440403Comment1563"><div>Agreed Ben but let me just nitpick and say that Mirrordin and other Loxodon Warhammers /must/ behave the same as they have the same English card name. So one or the other will be errata-ed to act like the other. If you see what I mean :)</div>
</blockquote> Agreed Ben but let me just ni…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2009-06-12:3440403:Comment:15632009-06-12T14:59:12.563ZThomas David Bakerhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/ThomasDavidBaker
Agreed Ben but let me just nitpick and say that Mirrordin and other Loxodon Warhammers /must/ behave the same as they have the same English card name. So one or the other will be errata-ed to act like the other. If you see what I mean :)
Agreed Ben but let me just nitpick and say that Mirrordin and other Loxodon Warhammers /must/ behave the same as they have the same English card name. So one or the other will be errata-ed to act like the other. If you see what I mean :) You miss the point Jason. It'…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2009-06-12:3440403:Comment:15612009-06-12T14:27:21.561ZBen Titmarshhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/BenTitmarsh
You miss the point Jason. It's not the change to a static ability that is dislike, this is definitely an improvement. Its the decision they've made to make "lifelink" and "when this deals damage you gain that much life" different things. One is static, one is triggered, so the latter won't save you from lethal. The fact that these were previously equivalent, and are now significantly different will cause much confusion (especially as the latter received errata to be the former which is now…
You miss the point Jason. It's not the change to a static ability that is dislike, this is definitely an improvement. Its the decision they've made to make "lifelink" and "when this deals damage you gain that much life" different things. One is static, one is triggered, so the latter won't save you from lethal. The fact that these were previously equivalent, and are now significantly different will cause much confusion (especially as the latter received errata to be the former which is now getting reversed). On top of all of this Mirrodin and 9th Loxodon Warhammer now behave differently. This is going to cause confusion, something that they were trying to avoid.<br />
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<cite>Jason Howlett said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/new-rules-with-m10?x=1&id=3440403%3ATopic%3A987&page=2#3440403Comment1544"><div>Surely being able to stay alive with your Lifelink dude is will be whole load better than dying because Lifelink used to trigger and you had to still be alive to receive the life when the trigger resolved.<br/> <br/>
I've been thinking about this a bit recently. It basically means you play all your tricks before combat damage and you do still get to block and sacrifice - you just don't get to kill their guy at the same time.<br/>
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<cite>Ben Titmarsh said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/new-rules-with-m10?id=3440403%3ATopic%3A987&page=2#3440403Comment1101"><div>The combat stuff will take some getting used to, but I think its more in keeping with the flavour of the game.<br/><br/>The biggest annoyance out of all of it for me is this lifelink stuff. The fact that "lifelink" and "when [this] deals damage you gain that much life" used to be identical, and the latter errata-ed to the former. Now they are different and the errata has all been unpicked and they have a significantly different meaning, except for one notable exception Mirrodin Loxodon Warhammer which does receive the errata. Thats bullshit. Just errata everything and it will be a lot clearer.</div>
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</blockquote> I'm getting used to this a bi…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2009-06-12:3440403:Comment:15492009-06-12T11:47:17.549ZDan Barretthttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/DanBarrett
I'm getting used to this a bit now.<br />
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TBH, i think what we really need to do is sit down and test out these new rules some and see how they actually are in practise, rather than just hypothesising.<br />
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Hypocritical i know.<br />
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End of the day, starting at M10 pre-re we have to use these rules, so might as well get good at them now.
I'm getting used to this a bit now.<br />
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TBH, i think what we really need to do is sit down and test out these new rules some and see how they actually are in practise, rather than just hypothesising.<br />
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Hypocritical i know.<br />
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End of the day, starting at M10 pre-re we have to use these rules, so might as well get good at them now. I lost the sledge mirror a fe…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2009-06-12:3440403:Comment:15472009-06-12T11:36:04.547ZThomas David Bakerhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/ThomasDavidBaker
I lost the sledge mirror a few weeks ago because I neglected to think clearly about Lifelink stacking (I got him to zero but let him "simultaneously" gain 10 - in actual fact he would have been dead). The fact that some old cards have "gain life" and others have the new lifelink is a bit daft though.<br />
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We should start playing with the new rules right away at Games Club, or would that not be allowed?
I lost the sledge mirror a few weeks ago because I neglected to think clearly about Lifelink stacking (I got him to zero but let him "simultaneously" gain 10 - in actual fact he would have been dead). The fact that some old cards have "gain life" and others have the new lifelink is a bit daft though.<br />
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We should start playing with the new rules right away at Games Club, or would that not be allowed? Surely being able to stay ali…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2009-06-12:3440403:Comment:15442009-06-12T11:33:57.544ZThe Games Clubhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/JasonHowlett
Surely being able to stay alive with your Lifelink dude is will be whole load better than dying because Lifelink used to trigger and you had to still be alive to receive the life when the trigger resolved.<br />
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I've been thinking about this a bit recently. It basically means you play all your tricks before combat damage and you do still get to block and sacrifice - you just don't get to kill their guy at the same time.<br />
<br />
<cite>Ben Titmarsh said:…</cite>
Surely being able to stay alive with your Lifelink dude is will be whole load better than dying because Lifelink used to trigger and you had to still be alive to receive the life when the trigger resolved.<br />
<br />
I've been thinking about this a bit recently. It basically means you play all your tricks before combat damage and you do still get to block and sacrifice - you just don't get to kill their guy at the same time.<br />
<br />
<cite>Ben Titmarsh said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/new-rules-with-m10?id=3440403%3ATopic%3A987&page=2#3440403Comment1101"><div>The combat stuff will take some getting used to, but I think its more in keeping with the flavour of the game.<br/><br/>The biggest annoyance out of all of it for me is this lifelink stuff. The fact that "lifelink" and "when [this] deals damage you gain that much life" used to be identical, and the latter errata-ed to the former. Now they are different and the errata has all been unpicked and they have a significantly different meaning, except for one notable exception Mirrodin Loxodon Warhammer which does receive the errata. Thats bullshit. Just errata everything and it will be a lot clearer.</div>
</blockquote> Chapin weighs in on the Star…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2009-06-12:3440403:Comment:15422009-06-12T11:08:40.542ZThomas David Bakerhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/ThomasDavidBaker
Chapin weighs in on the Star City Games forums:<br />
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<a href="http://forums.starcitygames.com/viewtopic.php?t=318185">http://forums.starcitygames.com/viewtopic.php?t=318185</a><br />
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<i>the rules changes ARE a good thing, and not just for attracting new players or making the game more intuitive to some people.<br />
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i know it is not popular to suggest patience and trying the new rules before judging them, but i am of the opinion that wotc r&d is full of really smart people who have thought long and hard…</i>
Chapin weighs in on the Star City Games forums:<br />
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<a href="http://forums.starcitygames.com/viewtopic.php?t=318185">http://forums.starcitygames.com/viewtopic.php?t=318185</a><br />
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<i>the rules changes ARE a good thing, and not just for attracting new players or making the game more intuitive to some people.<br />
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i know it is not popular to suggest patience and trying the new rules before judging them, but i am of the opinion that wotc r&d is full of really smart people who have thought long and hard about the game that they have dedicated their life to making the best possible game it can be.<br />
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there are always going to be countless people who will claim the sky is falling every time there is any change in any aspect of life, magic or otherwise, but i would suggest that it may be wise to slow for a moment and not get caught up on the band wagon that is bash wotc for ruining magic.<br />
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i mean, first of all, every rule but one is clearly superior. battlefield and exile are fine names for zones that need names. you are embarrassed to play magic because of names like battlefield? ever wonder where cards go when you discard them or where they come from when you draw them? i mean, really, you are playing a game with dragons and magic and fireballs and vampires, get over it.<br />
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what would the transformers or x-men movies had been like if the producers and tried to pretend that there werent giant robots turning into cars or mutants with metal skeletons? i will reserve judgement on the insecurity of one that would be ashamed of such a flavor.<br />
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resolving mulligans at the same time is obviously good for tournament play. why would one not applaud wotc for this?<br />
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mana pools clearing and mana burn being erased: well, mana pools clearing is obviously more logical, and mana burn was an interesting aspect from a strategic standpoint, but the complexity contributed little compared to what it cost the game from a design standpoint and from a tracking information standpoint. if your problem comes from specific cards being ruined like Power Surge, take comfort in knowing that new cards will be born that never could have before. if your problem is the loss of strategic depth, be aware that the game can only handle so much complexity and mana burn offers little compared to what it costs the game.<br />
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think of it like this, what would you prefer to exist, Planeswalkers or Mana Burn?<br />
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it would seem that few reasonable arguements can be brought forward for any rules change beyond the new combat system. i admit that my initial reaction towards this combat was one of anxiety. i feared the loss of strategic depth when it came to attacking with a lured trained armadon and my opponent blocks with three hill giants. i have an infest, why cant i kill them?!<br />
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however, upon further reflection, i realized that while there is loss of strategic depth in some areas, there is actually an increase in strategic depth in others. for instance, an attacker than can correctly determine what "trick" the defender is up to is at an advantage when ordering blockers. similarly, a blocker than can correctly anticipate the ordering of blockers the attacker will choose is at an advantage, let alone the possibilities increasing for bluffing actually impacting combat regularly.<br />
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some lament the loss of giant growths ability to protect gaddock teeg in a triple block (when they position him first) however you must realize that giant growth now has the ability to protect multiple creatures at once. Imagine if a 3/3, a 2/2, a 1/1 and a 1/1 are blocking a 7/7. Giant growth on the 2/2 saves three creatures now if the opponent orders them in this way. on the other hand, if the opponent orders them in the reverse, 1/1, 1/1, 2/2, and 3/3 (correctly anticipating the trick) it only saves one. On the other hand, if the attacker was wrong about the trick, and it is actually a cycled Naya Sojuners, ordering the blockers in this way will lead to the defender getting to keep his best creature instead of his worst.<br />
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see, while there is loss of strategic depth in some areas, it is without question that there are rich new areas of strategy to reward players for understanding. combat hardly plans itself.<br />
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as far as damage on the stack goes, just remember all of the people who cried out when wotc first suggested putting damage on the stack. you are mad that mogg fanatic doesnt bend the rules anymore? remember, when it was designed, that was not how it was supposed to work any way. the new system is more intuitive, no questiton, but it is not at the expense of game play. the cards can be designed under either system. the changes will take a little getting used to, but the theory behind them is good.<br />
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basically what it comes down to is this:<br />
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Pros: these rules changes are healthy for the longevity and expansion of the game and improve the rules structure that by its very growth every 3 months is always at risk of growing out of control.<br />
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Cons: change is always hard for some people. some will claim that the loss of strategic depth is a major con, and i agree it would be if not for the increase in strategic depth in other areas.<br />
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Try the new rules before being so quick to insult the men and women who spend their lives making this great game we love. Do you really think they would make these changes so recklessly? If one can really not find a single announcement or change in the past 365 days that wotc did right, is that a statement about wotc or the one with the lack of perspective.<br />
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paulo, you know i love you, but dont be that guy. the sky isnt falling. wotc arent idiots. give the new rules a chance.<br />
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to anyone out there that is going wild complaining about the new rules to anyone that will listen, i would challenge you to copy/paste everything you are saying into a word document that reprint it 18 months from now in all of these same places as well as an honest assessment as to the accuracy of the claims.<br />
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i will gladly revisit the things i have said here 18 months ago. we shall see what time has to say about things</i> Zvi Moshowitz does a pretty g…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2009-06-11:3440403:Comment:14082009-06-11T14:46:36.408ZThomas David Bakerhttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/ThomasDavidBaker
Zvi Moshowitz does a pretty good hatchet job on the combat changes:<br />
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<a href="http://www.top8magic.com/2009/06/ruined-forever-the-magic-2010-rules-changes-by-zvi-mowshowitz/">http://www.top8magic.com/2009/06/ruined-forever-the-magic-2010-rules-changes-by-zvi-mowshowitz/</a><br />
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<i>To summarize the implications regarding ease of use, this change makes combat into a special case of the general case, with the general case being the stack that the rest of the game uses. All players must still learn…</i>
Zvi Moshowitz does a pretty good hatchet job on the combat changes:<br />
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<a href="http://www.top8magic.com/2009/06/ruined-forever-the-magic-2010-rules-changes-by-zvi-mowshowitz/">http://www.top8magic.com/2009/06/ruined-forever-the-magic-2010-rules-changes-by-zvi-mowshowitz/</a><br />
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<i>To summarize the implications regarding ease of use, this change makes combat into a special case of the general case, with the general case being the stack that the rest of the game uses. All players must still learn the general case of how the stack works, but now must also learn the exception of how combat works. This makes the rules more complex, not less complex</i> i just read the rules stuff -…tag:demonictutor.ning.com,2009-06-10:3440403:Comment:12012009-06-10T14:01:42.201Zross mileshttps://demonictutor.ning.com/profile/rossmiles
i just read the rules stuff - now my head hurts.<br />
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i think they are also changing the rules of chess to make them more intuative - now at the start of the game both sides charge all their pieces forward - winner takes all.
i just read the rules stuff - now my head hurts.<br />
<br />
i think they are also changing the rules of chess to make them more intuative - now at the start of the game both sides charge all their pieces forward - winner takes all.