You Make the Set 5

[Thomas David Baker]

We are doing this in our Multiverse app:

http://mv.bluebones.net/

(Old shared Google spreadsheet for this is here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag7TtjWsLhYkdHBBUHF4RG... )

Channel Fireball just did Top 8 Mechanics:

* Retrace

* Dredge

* Landfall (not for attacking like Steppe Lynx - Grazing Gladehart and Roil Elemental style)

* Scry

* Flashback

* Kicker

* Flying

* Cycling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiNNg5aj-xo

I wonder if we could use that, or some of that, as the basis of You Make the Set 5.  I know that some of you were keen on Landfall.

Not sure when we would play it out but some time in late May probably?

[Thomas David Baker]

For comparison Innistrad has 113 Commons.

11 with Flashback, 5 with Morbid, 11 flip cards, 3 curses.  Plus a whole bunch of cards that interact with the graveyard like Skaabs or Morbid like Altar's Reap or the Mind Rot beetle that don't have actual keywords.  And plenty of things that don't have anything to do with anything except through creature type like Vampire Interloper and Voiceless Spirit.

[Kieran Symington]

On the abilities front:

White - I like lifegain as a theme, and I think it will be viable once we weed out the cards that don't do much. I really like Soulsong, but it could well be that I'm clinging stubbornly to it because I made it. A good clue might be that nobody else used it ever (unlike Portent which everyone immediately got behind)...

Blue - Portent is awesome and feels totally blue in nature. The less said about Landlock the better.

Black - Black needs a proper theme. It has a bit of lifelink, a bit of sacrificing and a few ways of manipulating your library. Maybe we should remove most mill effects from blue and make them black since it interacts favourably with the graveyard mechanics and would help to give black a bit more of an identity.

Red - Looting effects are great. Red is pretty decent I think. It's not just the 'little guys that attack' colour in this set!

Green - Centaurs! Green also seems pretty decent. Could potentially share some lifegain with white since they're allies and it would help them go together a bit more. The Centaur! ability is pretty cool and goes with basically every other colour but white.

So really Black needs sorting out and White needs to work out what it's doing. The other colours need a cull and I think Blue could use some more portent, but those two are really the issue right now.

[Thomas David Baker]

I agree that B and U are very much in the same turf at the moment.

Corrupt Seer, Doomed Prophet and Abortionist make me want to keep B in the top-of-library area though.

The various parts to the top-of-library puzzle are:

    1. Continuous reveal.

    2. Reveal until EOT.

    3. Remove the top card of your library to somewhere before you have to draw it.

    4. Play cards off the top.

At the moment B and U have all four of these each.  Is there any part we can take away from one and make exclusive to one color?  We could possibly give (3) to B exclusively but that means giving no Scry to U.  It's probably not enough to say that B can manipulate the top of their library without paying mana to differentiate it.

Maybe top-of-library is primarily in U and secondarily in B, and B gets some graveyard (Unearth, Graveshade) or life stuff (Life-Stealer, Dhalguur Bleeder, Subversion Priest, Futurist) or both, to fill in the gaps?

I propose the following be the list of mechanics for the 360:

1. Soulsong (W) plus attendant lifegain and other trigger-on-lifegain effects.

2. Portent (UB) plus attendant reveal and manipulate library effects, including Scry.

3. Looting (R) (not keyworded) plus a light smattering of Madness and Mindstorm to go with it.

4. Centaur mechanic (G) as reworded by me above to trigger for the rest of the turn and thus work with non-Miracle Portent and the effect being continuous so that it works with looting away the first card if you don't like it.

5. Retrace (UGBwr currently).

This means cutting:

Unite, Landfall, Fateseal, Hellbent, Kicker, Rebound, Undying, Vanishing

or just not caring that there are a few of those in the set.

Unite is the big one there as we currently have 13 cards.  I literally love all six of the Landfall guys but they can come back another day if we cut it.

What do you think?

[Thomas David Baker]

Looking at a lot of the Retrace cards are problematic.  We could cut Retrace too.  Either in favor of Landfall or just as a straight cut to help us get down to an awesome 360.  It's 14 cards including Flock, Call the Cubs and the very cool Rising Tides but it might make sense?

Or perhaps it doesn't matter if there are loads of keywords and the set has a kind of "cube" feel to it.

[Thomas David Baker]

I completely forgot about non-Centaur tribal when writing all this.

We also have three-color Wizards, Centaurs (G), Druids (G), Humans (WUBRg), Warriors (RG) and probably other things I have forgotten about.  Is that a theme of this set or not?

[Thomas David Baker]

Alright, here's my pass at how I'd fill the common skeleton for a 360 card set from what we currently have.  A few missing holes and a few cards I am sad to leave behind but overall I'd be pretty happy with this:

CW01 - creature, small, lifegain DETERMINED PILGRIM
CW02 - creature, small, lifegain BLESSED PILGRIM
CW03 - creature, small, first strike, lifelink ZEALOUS PROTECTOR
CW04 - creature, small, flying, lifelink SUNSOUL LARK
CW05 - creature, small, flying ANARA FALCONER
CW06 - creature, small, tapper TOWER WARDEN
CW07 - creature, medium, flying, soulsong EXALTATION OF LARKS
CW08 - creature, medium, lifegain SOUL GUARDIAN
CW09 - creature, medium, soulsong SOULBRETHREN
CW10 - instant - creature removal, soulsong OVERPOWERING LIGHT
CW11 - instant - combat trick, lifegain RISE UP
CW12 - instant - lifegain FREYA'S BLESSING
CW13 - sorcery - creature removal LONG JOURNEY
cutting - BEAR HEALER, FLEDGELING SHRIKE, MARTIAL CENTAUR, SOULWATCH GUARDIAN, ANARA AMORER, HOMESTEAD GUARDIAN, SHINING DECEIVER, ANARA BLINDER, SOUL MANTRA, SUBDUE, SECOND COMING, HEALING CHANT, SOULFUL OFFERING, SILENT DISMISSAL
missing - soulsong, flying, vigilance, enchantment removal
That's 10/13 commons that gain life or care about gaining life which might be overkill.

CU01 - creature, small, flying, portent SHIMMERSPRITE
CU02 - creature, small, flash INSPIRATIONIST
CU03 - creature, small, portent MINDLEECH AVIAN
CU04 - creature, small, flying, portent DIVINER'S FAMILIAR
CU05 - creature, medium, portent TOWER SENTINELS
CU06 - creature, large MINDCOIL SERPENT
CU07 - instant - hard counter DISSONANCE
CU08 - instant - soft counter INVALIDATE
CU09 - instant - card sifting, portent THINK FAST
CU10 - instant - card sifting sift, SCRYPULSE
CU11 - instant - shrinking RELEASE THE PRESSURE
CU12 - instant - bounce BANISH
CU13 - instant - card draw, portent RUMINATE
cutting - DEEPWATER LOON, CONVIVIAL SAGE, DEEPWATER SEER, BLUE TOWER APPRENTICE, APPRENTICE SEER, LEVITATOR, WILD LOREMASTER, DEEPWATER GRASPER, ICY GROUND, QUINTESSENCE ALTERATION, CONSIDER, SILENT DISAPPEARANCE, UNRAVELLING THOUGHTS, RISING TIDES, EARTH SHAKES
missing - twiddle, sorceries!

CB01 - creature, small, portent FLAYED SENTRY
CB02 - creature, small, flying, lifelink LIFE STEALER
CB03 - creature, small, GRAVESHADE
CB04 - creature, small, regenerate, flying GREAT TOWER BAT
CB05 - creature, small, portent FORESHADOWMAGE
CB06 - creature, small, creature removal GRAVE GEIST
CB07 - creature, medium, SUPPURATING SHAMBLER
CB08 - creature, medium, BONE BEAST
CB09 - creature, medium, CAPRICIOUS DEMON
CB10 - instant - creature removal CRUSH OF TOMES
CB11 - instant - creature removal THROW FROM THE TOWER
CB12 - sorcery - creature removal, portent IMPENDING DOOM
CB13 - sorcery - graveyard retrieval RAID THE VAULTS
cutting - DHALGUUR BLEEDER, DALGATH APPRENTICE, ETERNAL DECEIVER, CHILD OF TWILIGHT, VAULT CREEPER, COFFIN BREAKER, SPINED LEAPER, FEN BEAR, UNDERVAULT HORDE, PUTRID CRAWLER, DALGATH FATESEER, LOSE HOPE, SHELL STAMP, TAKE DOWN, SILENT SUFFERING, SORCERER'S EXECUTION, BERATE, EARTHCURSE, BREAK THE SHARED GRAVE
missing - intimidate, deathtouch, damage/drain, discard

CR01 - creature, small, LUNATIC BERSERKER
CR02 - creature, small, RADICAL MAGE
CR03 - creature, small, MANIC RESEARCHER
CR04 - creature, small, TYROSHI SABOTEUR
CR05 - creature, medium, intimidate TYROSHI RAIDERS
CR06 - creature, medium ANGRY GIANT
CR07 - creature, large SLAVE HELLION
CR08 - instant - direct damage creature MINDSHOCK
CR09 - instant - direct damage both HOT UNDER THE COLLAR
CR10 - instant - grant haste LOOTING CHARM
CR11 - instant - direct damage both PAGEFLAME
CR12 - sorcery - DOUBLE TROUBLE
CR13 - sorcery - MANIA SHARDS
cutting - NETWEILDER, IDIOT SAVANT, MAGE FANATIC, STUNTED BEAR, WILD HERD, NET WEILDER, , SILENT FLAMES, ECHO OF THE PHOENIX, MOVE ON, REVERSE FORM
missing - land destruction, panic, haste, first strike (2), trample

CG01 - creature, small, centaur FOLOI RECANTER
CG02 - creature, small, centaur ADOLESCENT CENTAUR
CG03 - creature, small, CENTAUR CONSCRIPTOR
CG04 - creature, small, CALL THE CUBS
CG05 - creature, medium, centaur FOLOI THOROUGHBRED
CG06 - creature, medium, PELION-CLAN RANGER
CG07 - creature, medium, reach
CG08 - creature, medium, BATTLEFIELD ORACLE
CG09 - creature, large, centaur PELION-CLAN WARBAND
CG10 - instant - pt boosting
CG11 - sorcery - artifact/enchantment removal SIMPLE OFFERING
CG12 - sorcery - flying destruction BLOODVINE'S CLAWS
CG13 - enchantment, aura - pt boosting, portent PRUDENT ADAPTATION
missing - flash?, reach, instant pt boosting, deathtouch, trample, medium creature
cutting - GROWTH, RECLAIM, SILENT STRENGTH, ERRATIC EXPLORER, HORIZON EXPLORER, NOXIOUS BEETLE, MANASOUL DRUID, LOAMING BEAR, STRONGHOLD SPIDER, MANY-EYED MONSTER, CENTAUR STOMPER, ENGORGED MURLODONT

CA01 - creature
CA02 - sac
CA03 - tap
CA04 - equipment WEIGHTY AXE
CA05 - equipment
missing - everything!

Does leave our R and our G missing a few of their normal abilities but we can tack a bit of First Strike and Trample on and we know our R is not traditional R anyway.

[Thomas David Baker]

Re: Portent.  We should make it just:

Portent - You may play this card if it is revealed and on top of your library.

So many of the costs are the same or very similar and I'm pretty sure we're getting rid of the enemy colored portents.  If we want some Rares or Uncommons that monkey with that basic version we can add text to those cards.

Whaddyathink?

[Kieran Symington]

Mostly I like Tom's calls on the commons, though there are some I think differently about:

Zealous Protector seems a bit good for a common. Getting two amazing abilities on a 2/2 for 3 is kind of crazy.

Equally, Rise Up might be too good at common since it's such a massive life swing plus mass pump. Not had a chance to play with it yet, though, so I could well be wrong here.

Bear Healer didn't make it despite his abysmal Power & Toughness and marginal ability. What an outrage!

Invalidate is a bit too risky for my liking. Though I guess it will nearly always counter the spell.

We probably need another common Portent creature in Blue. Plus some sort of Deepwater Grasper variant would be quite nice.

Life Stealer seems a bit out of place in black now. Would prefer another creature there, although none of the available ones really appeal at present.

Bone Beast is clearly a total boss.

Lunatic Berserker makes me sad. A better red 2-drop is clearly needed.

Adolescent Centaur is rubbish compared to the other centaurs. I'd rather have either of the 2/2s for 2 than a 1/1 who might be a 3/3 if you're lucky.

Guess we need a new spider.

And some artifacts.

[Thomas David Baker]

Yeah some of the cards that "made it" need to change or even be replaced I think.  Particularly in R.  Plus we can't have Call the Cubs because I cut Retrace in the end.

You are behind my new version of Portent, cutting Unite, cutting Retrace, cutting Landfall and cutting all the marginal keywords?

More simple Portent at Common would be good I think.  I'll make comments on the individual cards - but I want to achieve consensus on the keyword cuts.  Particularly Unite and Retrace which have double digit numbers of cards.

[Simon O'Keeffe]

Wow a lot happened while I was finishing Diablo.

I was thinking about the common distribution before even coming to the thread. Is 13 unique commons per colour enough? We are getting 10 uncommons? Or is it more fun to play with the higher power level uncommons?

Also 40 rares per draft is actually way higher than for a real set. Perhaps my breakdown wasn't particularly well thought through?

If we cut down to:

35 rares (35)

50 uncommons (100)

75 commons (225)

--- total (360)

Hmm only actually gives us 1 more common per colour, and loses 10 unique cards. Might make a whole for Bear Healer though...

[Thomas David Baker]

That IS a lot rares per draft.  Either we should drop to a max of 24 rares or be very careful that we don't make bombs that just end games.  Possibly both.

[Simon O'Keeffe]

New version of Portent is Aperture style right?

So can never play it off temporary reveals?

Are we changing all reveals to "until end of turn"?

Just feels a little clunky, but I understand the reasoning. Might be worth adding Flash to one or two of them.

With regards to Unite, I'm happy to set it aside. It felt a little clunky and actually requires too much support, plus encourages you to build mono colour which isn't all that fun.

As for other keywords, if we cut retrace we should probably cut landfall too. They offer some nice tension together. Fateseal seems perfect for this set I'm not sure why we didn't make more cards with it. Perhaps at sorcery speed it isn't good enough.

As for individual cards for the skeleton, I'll have a look at those tomorrow.