You Make the Set 5

[Thomas David Baker]

We are doing this in our Multiverse app:

http://mv.bluebones.net/

(Old shared Google spreadsheet for this is here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag7TtjWsLhYkdHBBUHF4RG... )

Channel Fireball just did Top 8 Mechanics:

* Retrace

* Dredge

* Landfall (not for attacking like Steppe Lynx - Grazing Gladehart and Roil Elemental style)

* Scry

* Flashback

* Kicker

* Flying

* Cycling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiNNg5aj-xo

I wonder if we could use that, or some of that, as the basis of You Make the Set 5.  I know that some of you were keen on Landfall.

Not sure when we would play it out but some time in late May probably?

[Thomas David Baker]

We have 15-19 commons in each color so pretty close.

Here's my latest stab at the skeleton.

Basic skeleton:

(W gets the following at common: flying, first strike, vigilance and sometimes flash, protection or lifelink.)
(2-3 fliers.)
CW01 - creature, small
CW02 - creature, small
CW03 - creature, small
CW04 - creature, small
CW05 - creature, small
CW06 - creature, small
CW07 - creature, small
CW08 - creature, small/medium
CW09 - creature, small/medium
CW10 - creature, medium
(White always has some kind of lifegain, enchantment removal, and creature removal (which can include Pacifism-like effects), and some combat trick (small power/toughness boosting and ability granting are common ones). It often has team boosting ("all your creatures get +1/+1" until end of turn) and damage prevention/redirection.)
CW11 -
CW12 -
CW13 -
CW14 -
(U gets flying and shroud, and sometimes islandwalk or flash.)
(2-3 fliers.)
CU01 - creature, small
CU02 - creature, small
CU03 - creature, small
CU04 - creature, small
CU05 - creature, small
CU06 - creature, large
(Blue always has a counterspell (often two, one hard, one soft), "bounce" ("return BLAH to its owner's hand"), card drawing, creature-control enchantment (most often locking it down), and sometimes has a card sifting, shrinking ("target creature gets –N/-0 until end of turn"), or twiddling ("tap or untap target BLAH").)
CU07 -
CU08 -
CU09 -
CU10 -
CU11 -
CU12 -
CU13 -
CU14 -
(B gets the following at common: flying, deathtouch, intimidate, and sometimes haste, lifelink, regeneration or swampwalk.)
(1-2 fliers.)
CB01 - creature, small
CB02 - creature, small
CB03 - creature, small
CB04 - creature, small
CB05 - creature, small/medium
CB06 - creature, medium
CB07 - creature, medium
CB08 - creature, medium
(Black always has multiple creature kill (usually "destroy target nonBLAH creature" and "target creature gets –N/-N until end of turn"), discard, graveyard creature retrieval ("return a creature card from your graveyard to your hand"), and often has power boosting ("CARDNAME gets +N/+0 until end of turn), card drawing for life, or damage/life loss to a creature or player oftentimes where you gain life as a result.)
CB09 -
CB10 -
CB11 -
CB12 -
CB13 -
CB14 -
(R gets the following at common: haste, first strike, trample, and sometimes intimidate or mountainwalk. Firebreathing isn't technically a keyword, but it shows up in almost every set.)
CR01 - creature, small
CR02 - creature, small
CR03 - creature, small
CR04 - creature, small
CR05 - creature, small/medium
CR06 - creature, small/medium
CR07 - creature, medium/large
( Red always has direct damage (on numerous spells, some hitting players, some creatures and some both), power boosting, panic effects ("target creature cannot block"), and sometimes haste granting and land destruction.)
CR08 -
CR09 -
CR10 -
CR11 -
CR12 -
CR13 -
CR14 -
(G gets the following at common: trample, deathtouch, regeneration, and sometimes flash, forestwalk, reach, shroud, or vigilance.)
CG01 - creature, small
CG02 - creature, small
CG03 - creature, small
CG04 - creature, small/medium
CG05 - creature, medium
CG06 - creature, medium
CG07 - creature, medium
CG08 - creature, medium/large
CG09 - creature, large
(Green always has power/toughness boosting, land searching, artifact/enchantment removal, and often mana production, life gain, fog ("prevent all combat damage"), and flying destruction.)
CG10 -
CG11 -
CG12 -
CG13 -
CG 14 -
"Note that whatever doesn't show up in common can show up in uncommon to still have a presence in Limited."
(From time to time a theme may bring artifacts from the bottom higher up (in artifact-themed blocks, it's often #1) but most of the time it only has zero to two artifact creatures at common.)
CC01 - creature, small
CC02 - creature, large
CC03 -
CC04 -
CC05 -
CL01 -
CL02 -
CL03 -
CL04 -
CL05 -

Plus we have to give the mechanics we care about a presence at common too. That means Soulsong, Portent, Looting, the Graveyard and the Cyclops/Centaur mechanic. And we want a Foresight/Foreshadow card in common

So, let's try and fill it out with cards we have and see what we are missing/have excess of:

CW01 - creature, small, lifegain BLESSED PILGRIM
CW02 - creature, small, lifegain DETERMINED PILGRIM
CW03 - creature, small, soulsong FANATICAL DEVOTEE
CW04 - creature, small, lifelink, flying SUNSOUL LARK
CW05 - creature, small, lifegain SOUL GUARDIAN
CW06 - creature, small, soulsong, flying ANARA FALCONER
CW07 - creature, small, tapper, TOWER WARDEN
CW08 - creature, small/medium, foresight, SOULSEER
CW09 - creature, small/medium, soulsong, flying EXALTATION OF LARKS
CW10 - creature, medium, soulsong, SOULBRETHREN
CW11 - instant, lifegain FREYA'S BLESSING
CW12 - instant, creature removal OVERPOWERING LIGHT
CW13 - instant, team boosting RISE UP
CW14 - enchantment, aura, creature removal GIBBET CONFINEMENT
Notes we didn't hit: FIRST STRIKE (always), VIGILANCE (always), FLASH (sometimes), PROTECTION (sometimes), ENCHANTMENT REMOVAL (always), DAMAGE PREVENTION/REDUCTION (often), COMBAT TRICK (always).
No room for: SECOND COMING, LONG JOURNEY (or GIBBET CONFINEMENT?)

CU01 - creature, small, flying, topcard, portent DEEPWATER GRASPER
CU02 - creature, small, (flying), topcard MINDLEECH AVIAN
CU03 - creature, small, foresight TOWER SENTINELS
CU04 - creature, small, flying, topcard DIVINER'S FAMILIAR
CU05 - creature, small, flying, portent, SHIMMERSPRITE
CU06 - creature, large, topcard MINDCOIL SERPENT
(Blue always has a counterspell (often two, one hard, one soft), "bounce" ("return BLAH to its owner's hand"), card drawing, creature-control enchantment (most often locking it down), and sometimes has a card sifting, shrinking ("target creature gets –N/-0 until end of turn"), or twiddling ("tap or untap target BLAH").)
CU07 - instant, counterspell (hard) DISSONANCE
CU08 - instant, counterspell (soft) INVALIDATE
CU09 - instant, bounce BANISH
CU10 - instant, card drawing THOUGHT SHARDS
CU11 - instant, card sifting RUMINATE
CU12 - enchantment, aura, creature control, foresight TIME'S BONDAGE
CU13 - instant, card sifting THINK FAST
CU14 -
Problems: Mindleech Avian gives us half a card too much flying.
Notes we didn't hit: SHRINKING (sometimes), TWIDDLING (sometimes), SHROUD (always - cold give it to Tower Sentinels?), ISLANDWALK (sometimes), FLASH (sometimes - is on inspirationist)
No room for: INSPIRATIONIST (move to uncommon), BLUE TOWER APPRENTICE, DEEPWATER LOON (move to uncommon?), SCRYPULSE (move to uncommon), AVEN WINDSEER (time's bondage is a better fit?), DIVINER'S ROD (being the one colored artifact is annoying even though the flavor is cool)

(B gets the following at common: flying, deathtouch, intimidate, and sometimes haste, lifelink, regeneration or swampwalk.)
(1-2 fliers.)
CB01 - creature, small, foresight, regeneration FLAYED SENTRY
CB02 - creature, small, flying, drain LIFE-STEALER
CB03 - creature, small, graveyard COFFIN BREAKER
CB04 - creature, small, creature removal, graveyard GRAVE GEIST
CB05 - creature, small/medium, graveyard GRAVESHADE
CB06 - creature, medium, graveyard DALGATH RAIDER
CB07 - creature, medium, graveyard UNDERVAULT HORDE
CB08 - creature, medium CAPRICIOUS DEMON
CB09 - sorcery, creature removal THROW FROM THE TOWER
CB10 - sorcery, creature removal portent IMPENDING DOOM
CB11 - instant, creature removal WITHERING DECAY
CB12 - sorcery, graveyard retrieval RAID THE VAULTS
CB13 - sorcery, discard, portent, HORRIFYING VISION
CB14 - instant, graveyard BLIND THE EYE
Problems: too much creature removal?
Notes we didn't hit: POWER BOOSTING (often), CARD DRAWING FOR LIFE (often), DEATHTOUCH (always), INTIMIDATE (always), SWAMPWALK (sometimes)
No room for: DALGATH APPRENTICE (could replace capricious demon? but then we don't have enough medium creatures), DALGATH PROWLER (would give us deathtouch), BONE BEAST (come on!), SUPPURATING SHAMBLER (rules issues!), DEATHSEER (flayed sentry better)
I think we should cut Capricious Demon (or push to uncommon), make one of the existing guys bigger or count for a medium slot and get Dalgath Prowler in for deathtouch and graveyard.

(R gets the following at common: haste, first strike, trample, and sometimes intimidate or mountainwalk. Firebreathing isn't technically a keyword, but it shows up in almost every set.)
CR01 - creature, small, first strike, foresight BLOODSEER
CR02 - creature, small, direct damage, MAGE FANATIC
CR03 - creature, small, looting, RADICAL MAGE
CR04 - creature, small, looting, MANIC RESEARCHER
CR05 - creature, small/medium, intimidate, TYROSHI RAIDERS
CR06 - creature, small/medium, madness ANGRY GIANT
CR07 - creature, medium/large, looting SLAVE HELLION
( Red always has direct damage (on numerous spells, some hitting players, some creatures and some both), power boosting, panic effects ("target creature cannot block"), and sometimes haste granting and land destruction.)
CR08 - sorcery DOUBLE TROUBLE
CR09 - instant, damage creature or player, looting PAGEFLAME
CR10 - instant, damage creature or player, madness HOT UNDER THE COLLAR
CR11 - instant, damage creature, looting, haste LOOTING CHARM
CR12 -
CR13 -
CR14 -
Notes we didn't hit: HASTE (always), FIRST STRIKE (always), trample (ALWAYS), mountainwalk (SOMETIMES), POWER BOOSTING (always), PANIC (always), LAND DESTRUCTION (sometimes)
No room for: DUELING MAGE, CIRCLING LUNATICS, TYROSHI SABOTUER, NETWIELDER
Missing: three spells!

CG01 - creature, small, deathtouch, foresight CYCLOPS POISONER
CG02 - creature, small, mana production, foresight CYCLOPS FARMER
CG03 - creature, small, foresight CYCLOPS WARRIOR
CG04 - creature, small/medium, intimidate, foresight BELLOWING CYCLOPS
CG05 - creature, medium, reach, foresight CYCLOPS ARCHER
CG06 - creature, medium, vigilance CYCLOPS SENTRY
CG07 - creature, medium, reach, flying destruction BRAWLING SPIDER
CG08 - creature, medium/large, trample BLUNDERING CYCLOPS
CG09 - creature, large, trample ENGORGED MURLODONT
(Green always has power/toughness boosting, land searching, artifact/enchantment removal, and often mana production, life gain, fog ("prevent all combat damage"), and flying destruction.)
CG10 - enchantment - aura, pt boosting PRUDENT ADAPTATION
CG11 - instant, pt boosting PRIMITIVE BELLOW
CG12 - instant, flying destruction BLOODVINE'S THORNS
CG13 - sorcery, enchantment/artifact destruction SIMPLE OFFERING
CG14 -
Notes we didn't hit: REGENERATE (always), FLASH (sometimes), FORESTWALK (sometimes), FOG (often), LIFE GAIN (often), SHROUD (sometimes)
No room for: ERRATIC EXPLORER, MANASOUL DRUID, STARTLED CYCLOPS, CENTAUR PRECEPTOR, BATTLESCARRED CYCLOPS
Missing: one spell, preferably a sorcery.

(From time to time a theme may bring artifacts from the bottom higher up (in artifact-themed blocks, it's often #1) but most of the time it only has zero to two artifact creatures at common.)
CC01 - creature, small PORTAL THOPTER
CC02 - creature, large GRAVEN SERVITOR
CC03 - equipment, scry PRESCIENCE WAND
CC04 - foresight CARROMANTIC CANDLE
CC05 - equipment SCAVENGED WEAPONRY
CL01 - EXILE CAMP
CL02 - TEMPORAL MOIRAINE
CL03 -
CL04 -
CL05 -
No room for: SIGNAL SOLITAIRE (but we do want some colorless fixing?)
Missing: 3 lands

[Thomas David Baker]

So we have a crush of U and R creatures but perhaps we can count a looter or two as a spell for R?

We have slightly too much removal in B and we are missing a few commonly hit notes here and there which we could maybe tack on to existing cards.

Most importantly we need to test the new G creatures and see how they play.

But commons are getting there very definitely.

Thoughts on my skeleton above?

[Kieran Symington]

Might be time to retire all the Centaurs then see how things work with the Cyclopes. More playtesting is needed - why must you live in another part of the country Baker?!

[Thomas David Baker]

I'll be back next week.  Could do Weds night?  Holland v Germany at 7.45pm though!  Might have to be round mine or somewhere with a TV!  Not free Tue, Thu and Fri is England v Sweden.  Saturday 16 and Sunday 17 look good, if I'm not in France :S

PS I already retired all the centaurs!

[Simon O'Keeffe]

So my current thoughts on Green, it has loads of foresight, but only two spells at common that actually do anything with it (ignoring the innate cyclops bonuses), and both those spells are +2/+2 pump. Can we give green a portent mana fixing spell? Maybe just a Rampant Growth with portent? And maybe put portent on one of the creatures? 

[Simon O'Keeffe]

I can probably do Wednesday next week. Yours is almost on the way home for me Baker, would just have to nip up to Victoria or down to Brixton to get home.

Kieran Symington said:

Might be time to retire all the Centaurs then see how things work with the Cyclopes. More playtesting is needed - why must you live in another part of the country Baker?!

[Kieran Symington]

Pretty sure I can do Wednesday and your house is just down the road from my work.

For the commons, I definitely think we should find a space for Dalgath Prowler - possibly by combining Impending Doom and Throw from the Tower and just giving Throw the Portent cost. It is a bit odd to have two different sorcery-speed removal spells at common. Also I think we can cheat a bit on the red spells since things like Mage Fanatic are secretly spells you can play for free. Another creature like that might be useful.

I'm going to retire things that have repeatedly failed to make the cut. Second Coming is finally going!

[Thomas David Baker]

Weds night at mine sounds like a plan then.

Totally sold on Throw+Doom becoming one card and have done it in Multiverse.  Grave Geist can be a removal spell not a creature which makes room for Prowler.  We still might want to up the size of one of our common B creatures.

Also agree that we can include small spell-like creatures and looters as spells in R to make the numbers come out about right.  We have 13 commons in R right now.  Perhaps we should unretire Dueling Mage to make it up to 14?

[Thomas David Baker]

I've upped the number of common Wizards to 8 and Warriors to 10 although I have to say I don't have a clear plan besides Conclave why that is a good thing.  Hopefully we can add a couple more Uncommons/Rares that care about creature types in general or those particular creature types.  I still want to Empty the Libraries for 3 on t4 and then Conclave away all my opponent's permanents on t5!

[Paul Hodgson]

Where's your place Baker? Can do Weds as the missus is out.

[James Mills]

I have Thursday off so I can make Wed too!

Thomas David Baker said:

I've upped the number of common Wizards to 8 and Warriors to 10 although I have to say I don't have a clear plan besides Conclave why that is a good thing.  Hopefully we can add a couple more Uncommons/Rares that care about creature types in general or those particular creature types.  I still want to Empty the Libraries for 3 on t4 and then Conclave away all my opponent's permanents on t5!

[Kieran Symington]

Looks like we've got a full-on Magic & Football party.