You Make the Masters Set

[Thomas David Baker]

I loved Innistrad.  I believed Maro when he said New World Order made things better for experienced players too and used Innistrad as an example.

Then Modern Masters came out and despite having to include a bunch of rares and only being allowed cards from Mirrodin to Shards it was way better than anything we've seen since Innistrad, and most of what came before, too.

It will be minimum one year until the next Modern Masters.

So, my idea is, let's make our own Modern Masters.

Random ideas that are very much half formed:

* 6 of each of 60 commons, 3 of each of 60 uncommons, 2 of each of 50 rares, 1 of each of 10 mythics is 650 cards.

* Use old cards, pre-Mirrodin, for spell-based funtimes and novelty even for players that have been playing for a while.

* Invent cards where necessary to fill holes.

* Some possible seeded archetypes: free spell necro, ug madness, gro, draw-go, astral slide, reanimator, artifact control, mill, auras, tokens, birthing pod, pox, sacrifice, prison, wizard tribal.

* Possibly include a lot of Legacy playables and call it "Legacy Masters".  What wizards would print if they said fuck it to the secondary market and the reserve list and tried to support legacy via a "Masters" release.

What do you think?  Interested in being on the development team?  Could make for some cheap Tuesday nights during the long reign of M14* ...

* = Bit of a cheap shot.  I've actually really enjoyed 3 of the last 4 core set drafts.

[Kieran Symington]

I agree that most recent sets have been rubbish, and this definitely seems easier than trying to design a whole set from scratch. Kind of like building a giant cube only with far more arguing over what goes in. Plus we could do drafts on cube tutor if we use real cards!

[Philip Dickinson]

i would love to see Tempest through to Scourge, seeded with classic decks. Besides obvious choices like Fires, Madness, MBC, Slide, Reanimator; i'd love to see some cards from less-well-known archetypes (less-well-known to modern players at least) - Rofellos/Smokestack decks, Pirates decks, Accelerated Blue decks, Holistic Wisdom decks...

[Simon O'Keeffe]

Oh wow I was only just thinking about our abandoned DT cube on the Bakerverse this morning!

I would definitely be up for being involved, especially with the development. Some of the most Magic related fun I've had in the past couple of years has been working on our sets.

I think we need to be careful about trying to cram too many archetypes in, especially as a lot of older ones are based on very linear and isolated strategies. Modern Masters is a little like that too, but the archetypes they picked allowed a lot of 'glue' cards that work across archetypes, like the changelings being great for Fae, Giants, and Rebels.

Do we want to banter about potential inclusions here, create 'lists' on CubeTutor, or create the whole set on the Bakeverse (which allows commenting and new card creation)?

[Thomas David Baker]

I think the first thing is to decide the scope of the thing.

What is the plan?

What sets are allowed and what are not?

We have Phil's suggestion of Tempest-Scourge (Tempest Block-Onslaught Block).  That's the same number of blocks as were in Modern Masters and takes us right up to Mirrodin so I think that would make a lot of sense.  And that's enough constraints to breed some creativity.  At the risk of just saying "yes" to the first good-sounding suggestion that would work for me and was one of my first ideas, too.  Is there any chance that's too wide?  (It's almost all the cards before Mirrodin.)  Or not wide enough? (We could include all old-bordered cards.)

Are we making "Legacy Masters" and using that to determine our rares and working from there?  Vintage Masters? (Almost certainly impossible to balance but people do have fun with out of control unbalanced cubes.)

Here's some cards from Phil's range that imaginary management might ask for inclusion in Legacy Masters:

RARE - Allied Fetchlands, Back to Basics, City of Traitors, Cursed Scroll, Dream Halls, Energy Field, Entomb, Gamble, Ill-Gotten Gains, Manabond, Meddling Mage, Misdirection, Mox Diamond, Rishadan Port, Show and Tell, Stifle, Terravore, Unmask, Vindicate, Xantid Swarm.

UNCOMMON - Ancient Tomb, Chain of Vapor, Choke, Energy Flux, Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Ringleader, Massacre, Smother, Sterling Grove, Submerge, Tendrils of Agony, Turnabout, Wasteland, Wirewood Symbiote.

COMMON -Brainstorm, Cabal Ritual, Counterspell, Dark Ritual, Daze, Disenchant, Duress, Fertile Ground, Flame Rift, Ghastly Demise, Goblin Matron, Innocent Blood, Land Grant, Lotus Petal, Mental Note, Putrid Imp, Snuff Out

Of course we can mess with rarities just like they did in MMA.

There are also a bunch of potentially fun cards in the blocks that don't get played in Legacy: 

Akroma, Angel of Wrath, Aluren, Avatar of Woe, Bearscape, Bloodfire Colossus, Bribery, Decree of Pain, Devastating Dreams, Dragonstorm, Dreamborn Muse, Ensnaring Bridge, Eternal Dragon, Evacuation, Exalted Angel, Exploration, Form of the Dragon, Future Sight, Gaea's Cradle, Genesis, Glorious Anthem, Glory, Golden Wish, Grand Coliseum, Grave Pact, Graveborn Muse, Greater Good, Hatred, Humility, Jinxed Idol, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, Karn, Silver Golem, Legacy Weapon, Lightning Angel, Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero, Living Death, Living Wish, Painlands, Lord of the Undead, Mageta the Lion, Meditate, Mind Over Matter, Mind's Desire, Mirari, Mirari's Wake, Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer, Morphling, Mortivore, Mutilate, Mystic Crusader, Mystic Snake, Nantuko Shade, Nantuko Shrine, Nostalgic Dreams, Oversold Cemetery, Persecute, Phage the Untouchable, Phyrexian Arena, Phyrexian Processor, Plague Wind, Prophetic Bolt, Recurring Nightmare, Restock, Riptide Laboratory, Sarcomancy, Scroll Rack, Seedborn Muse, Seismic Assault, Shadowmage Infiltrator, Sliver Queen, Spectral Lynx, Spiritmonger, Squee, Goblin Nabob, Stroke of Genius, Sulfuric Vortex, Survival of the Fittest, Tangle Wire, Teferi's Moat, Time Spiral, Time Warp, Tolarian Academy, True Believer, Undermine, Upheaval, Urza's Rage, Verdant Force, Vernal Bloom, Voidmage Prodigy, Volrath's Stronghold, Wildfire, Worship, Anger, Invasion duals, Fact or Fiction, Flametongue Kavu, Foil, Harrow, Infest, Jackal Pup, Overrun, Predict, Psychatog, Sadistic Hypnotist, Slaughter, Slay, Temple of the False God, Valor, Voice of All, Wall of Blossoms, Zombify, Accumulated Knowledge, Cycling lands, Blastoderm, Capsize, Carnophage, Corrupt, Diabolic Edict, Dragon Breath, Exclude, Faceless Butcher, Mana Leak, Misery Charm, Nantuko Husk, Naturalize, Opt, Overgrowth, Peek, Repulse, Rewind, Rolling Thunder, Scornful Egotist, Seal of Fire, Seal of Doom, Seeker of Skybreak, Shock, Sift, Snuff Out, Stone Rain, Swat, Terminate, Twisted Abomination, Vendetta, Vicious Hunger, Werebear, Wood Elves, Zap'

As well as those that are banned in Legacy: Oath of Druids, Yawgmoth's Will, Worldgorger Dragon and Gush, at least.

For mana-fixing we have the Alled fetchlands, the Invasion duals, and Painlands plus whatever G manafixing there is.  There's also the cycling lands and lots of cantrips.

I'm not sure if we have the skill to balance a format with Dark Ritual, Counterspell, Wasteland, Goblin Ringleader, Ancient Tomb, Brainstorm and Vindicate in it, in particular to make viable creature decks, but it will be fun to try/find out!?

[Thomas David Baker]

Here's the magic search for Phil's blocks on magiccards.info

e:TMP OR e:STH OR e:EXO OR e:USG OR e:ULD OR e:USG OR e:MMQ OR e:NMS OR e:PCY OR e:INV OR e:PLS OR e:APC OR e:ODY OR e:TOR OR e:JUD OR e:ONS or e:LGN OR e:SCG

That brings back over 3000 results do you have to also include some other search term.

[Glenn Goldsworthy]

man I so wanted squiral opposition and the old stasis decks in (the stasis deck just to play against Mills)

[Simon O'Keeffe]

My initial thoughts were to go all the way back to Ice Age, but I think you are right that restricting the sets will be better for us, so I think the Tempest - Scourge time frame will give us plenty to choose from even though it will miss some Legacy staples like Swords to Plowshares and Natural Order.

The power of spells over creatures was still pretty strong at this point in Magic, but I think there will be enough of a base of creatures to enable viable decks, we will likely have the following:

Goblins

U/G Madness / Threshold

Rebels

Fires

Beasts / Elves?

I can certainly see a ton of cool control/combo decks jumping out from the lists you posted so the challenge will be to winnow those down. I guess the rarities may determine viability for some, but I think the following archetypes are supportable:

Storm - Brain Freeze at Unc, Tendrils at Rare, and maybe Desire at Mythic. Then maybe 1 or 2 innocuous Storm cards in other colours like Hunting Pack or Sprouting Vines

Show and Tell / Dream Halls / Sneak Atatck - Cheating something big into play. With no planeswalkers or Eldrazi this might not be as deadly as it sounds

Cycling - Astral Slide and Lightning Rift at Unc, easily supportable with random Cyclers we use to make the limited playable

Reanimator - maybe not a full supported archetype but enough enablers across the set that it is possible in some drafts. Probably Entomb at rare and something like Stitch Together/Zombify at lower rarity

Enchantress - a viable combo option for GW and similar to reanimator just seed a few core cards such as Mirari's Wake, Enchantress' Presence and maybe Serra's Sanctum at mythic

Mono Black control - not sure this is a good idea to try and get mono colour strategies in here, but there is certainly a lot of support for this if we want it

As usual I think red will be the hardest colour to have interesting draft strategies for, apart from Goblins and Burn what does it have?

[Glenn Goldsworthy]

I used to love enchantress so good and actually interesting

[Glenn Goldsworthy]

wait a min can we get the rock on the go with this?

Glenn Goldsworthy said:

I used to love enchantress so good and actually interesting

[Thomas David Baker]

There are various tribes with large numbers but not a lot of incentives to go tribal outside of Goblins.

Zombies have a few Zombie-triggering things: Lord of the Undead, Undead Warchief, Graveborn Muse (?!)

Slivers are probably too weak with only one +1/+1 sliver.

The Goblins deck has a lot of stuff though: Incinerator, Siege-Gang, Goblin Lackey, Matron, Warchief, Mogg Fanatic.  There's also a lot of "sac a goblin" cards like Goblin Bombardment that hint at a possible combo sacrifice version.  Grave Pact is also in the range.

Birds (72) Gustcloak Harrier, Possessed Aven, Stormscape Familiar, Welkin Hawk

Clerics (97) Ancestor's Chosen, Benevolent Bodyguard, Disciple of Grace, Disciple of Law, Doomed Necromancer, Ebonblade Reaper, Headhunter, Priest of Gix, Soltari Monk, Soltari Priest, Soul Warden, True Believer, Weathered Wayfarer, Withered Wretch, Zealous Inquisitor

Goblins (70) Arms Dealer, Festering Goblin, Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Legionnaire, Goblin Matron, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Sharpshooter, Goblin Warchief, Mogg Fanatic, Mogg Flunkies, Siege-Gang Commander, Sparksmith, Squee, Goblin Nabob

Slivers (33) Acidic Sliver, Blade Sliver, Brood Sliver, Clot Sliver, Crystalline Sliver, Essence Sliver, Heart Sliver, Magma Sliver, Metallic Sliver, Muscle Sliver, Shifting Sliver, Sliver Overlord, Sliver Queen, Spined Sliver, Synapse Sliver, Talon Sliver, Toxin Sliver, Ward Sliver, Winged Sliver

Wizards (127) Academy Researchers, Ambassador Laquatus, Anarchist, Arcanis the Omnipotent, Gempalm Sorcerer, Grim Lavamancer, Meddling Mage, Nightscape Apprentice, Nightscape Battlemage, Shadowmage Infiltrator, Stormscape Apprentice, Stormscape Battlemage, Sunscape Battlemage, Sylvan Safekeeper, Thornscape Apprentice, Thornscape Battlemage, Voidmage Prodigy, Willbender

Zombies (103) Bog Raiders, Cabal Interrogator, Carnophage, Carrion Feeder, Festering Goblin, Gempalm Polluter, Gloomdrifter, Lord of the Undead, Nantuko Husk, Nightscape Apprentice, Nightscape Battlemage, Nightscape Familiar, Putrid Imp, Twisted Abomination, Undead Gladiator, Undead Warchief, Withered Wretch, Zombie Cutthroat

I also missed these from Legacy staples on my first pass: Pernicious Deed, Sneak Attack, Cabal Therapy, Solitary Confinement, Sylvan Safekeeper, Wildfire, Goblin Piledriver, Grim Lavamancer

I am looking at Goblin Bombardment, Grave Pact, Fecundity, Carrion Feeder, Culling the Weak, Ertai, the Corrupted, Recurring Nightmare, Sadistic Hypnotist, Smokestack as some kind of sacrifice theme.  Possibly with token makers.

[Glenn Goldsworthy]

I think your right in the approach that looking at the number of triggers each have rather than the sheer number of each and I think your right only goblins really need to be a deck type

[Dan Barrett]

You could always make other tribes playable by creating some new "glue" cards to bring the archetypes together - e.g. Cleric lords to draft the Nathan theme deck, etc.

Or include some pre-prints - e.g. the Goblin deck also gets Mogg War Marshal and Krenko, or something?