Planeswalkers - Are They Irredeemably Broken?

[Thomas David Baker]

Creatures with an enters-the-battlefield effect are good because even if they are immediately killed you got something out of them.

 

Artifacts like Staff of Dominance with multiple activated abilities are good because they give you options.

 

Creatures and Artifacts are the two must vulnerable types in the game.

 

Planeswalkers have both of those benefits (to some degree), have no cost associated with their activated abilities, and are (from the hand, anyway) the *least* vulnerable type in the game.

 

Aren't they just fundamentally broken?

 

The other day I was playing my nearly-competitive Suicide Black Legacy deck (it was Tier 1 pre-Time Spiral, probably) and had a Hypnotic Specter, a Nantuko Shade,removal spells in hand and an opponent with 12 life, a Noble Hierarch, a Dryad Arbor and no cards.  Then he drew and played Venser, the Sojourner - not the best Planeswalker of all time.  And suddenly I have to kill this 5 life mini-player that gains 2 life a turn or lose the game.  It wasn't that I minded the game swinging away from me because he drew something good.  It was specifically that *kind* of swing that was annoying.  Am I just being a killjoy thinking that Hymn to Tourach should be part of the game but Venser, the Sojourner should not?

 

[James Mills]

I've actually never been Jaced - I've Jaced loads of people though.

 

Seriously though Garruk, Wildspeaker and Elspeth, Knight Errand. Are both very fun planeswalkers. Powerful but not insane.  

Glenn Goldsworthy said:

mills how often have you been on the receiving end of him, he is not in anyway fun

[Glenn Goldsworthy]

I actually agree it isn't that much fun winning with plainswalkers as it used to be just outwitting your opponent (a shock I know I have managed it a couple of times over the years).  I think we are also forgetting how much that have changed limited as they will dominate so many games if you or your opponent have them, I know there used to be bombs there still are but not many that can totally dominate a game from turn 3 onwards.

[Daniel Royde]

Is it the combination of "hard to answer" and building up to an ultimate by paying a cost, which is in fact beneficial? Most cards go Cost: Effect, not Cost, effect, effect, effect, big effect.

[Peter Dun]

sure... but I think there is a level of unfun-ness to certain planeswalkers that makes them depressing to play, compare 2 fun ones to 2 unfun ones:

 

Nicol Bolas: I summon a HUGEMOTHERF***ING DRAGON HE IS COMING TO EAT YOUR SOUL, WHAT CAN YOU DO MORTAL (think archenemy style swing in game, not that high loyalty consider 8 mana)

 

Venser: Gives you an incentive to build a deck around it, but costs 5 mana, and cannot defend itself. So you don't have that many spells left when you ultimate. The flavour of removing something forever is kinda cool too, especially as you must play WU to get the ability. Maybe shouldn't remove lands with ultimate....

 

 

 

Karn:

10 loyalty (you will never attack to death)

Colourless (so red can answer enchantments and green kill creatures...)

An ultimate that can make games go forever, especially in multiplayer

 

Jace2 (everything about this card is unfun, even if it isn't THAT overpowered)

+2: You will never answer this. Yes, you will try, but you will fail. You will not get lucky and have 2 relevant cards in a row on top, and every time your opponent leaves a card you are sure is a land, you will feel crushed)

0: You get to draw THREE cards? EVERY TURN? ....

-1: So I can't play any big creatures?

-12: So you win the game, but are still going to delight in making me suffer for 4 more turns? Why not just kill me now?

[Charlie Grover]

I think the problem with planeswalkers is the inability to meaningfully interact with their abilities in anyway. As a card type there is plenty that can be done about them. For abilities, power is all well and good; elspeth and garruk are very powerful cards in certain decks and formats but have never been "unfair" or even hugely unfun because all their abilities can be interacted with; Elspeth makes tokens which leads to combat, and has a pump which can be responded to with removal. Garruks +1 doesnt stop you gettting 1 for 1'ed out and his -1 creates creatures which are easy to interact with. Both their ultimate effects are strong but that feels somehow balanced; if you cant deal with them while they build the board up that far/create an army losing is a fair punishment. 

The unfun walkers are the ones whose abilities are hard to interact with. No one enjoys sitting opposite a Jace because each turn they untap with it, they do something you cant stop (barring stifle like effects sure). The reason he is so oppressive is because you cant deny his abilities; destroying him is not much harder than most walkers (sure unsummon is a kick in the teeth but he can be burnt out and cant recover you from a horrible board position) but the fact that once he gets going you cant interact with him is more of a problem. Same goes for Ajani Vengeat; he was a horrible card to play against because sometimes he just ticked up and geddon'ed you while you were holding removal and stuck on mana. Tezzeret, AoB feels similiar to this in someway - every turn he nets your opponent a card that you cant do very much about. Karn is a similiar story; sitting accross from him is unfun as his abilities create effects you cant answer, despite him not being an overpowered card in constructed by any means.

 

For this reason I actually think Jace3 is a bit underrated ATM; none of his abilities are "answerable" so each turn you untap with him your opponents cards in hand are less and less relevant - the same with ajani V and Jace 2; the nature of their abilities are such that ONLY cards that can answer planewalkers in your hand are important to the game, because unlike ones that require other nonland permanents (venser, garruk, to a lesser extent koth) they operate outside every other card type and just net you advantage. This is why oblivion ring should be in every core set. And hopefully is going to be from now on.

[Raymond Wat]

I agree.  If there are PW around then they should have some standard spells/effects to deal with them , like creature removal for...err...creature & shatter type effects for artifact.

Charlie Grover said:

.........they operate outside every other card type and just net you advantage. This is why oblivion ring should be in every core set. And hopefully is going to be from now on.